Bombers F3 mode Why should they have it?

[terrydew]

How would you handle numbering the ju88 with its two side by side top guns or the tu2 and its two tandem top guns?  No matter the solution there will always be players who will gripe about it and offer their own solution for this particular thing. Personally, I think it would be better to let the player assign their own button scheme for gun positions.

That may be a way to do both. Have a settings file (similar to head position) for each plane so the player can program each plane with the numbering system they prefer and if there is no file then revert to what is there now. Solves everyone's problem! HT just has to implement it😃

[Scca]

To the OP, what are you expecting to gain if F3 were to be disabled?  Killing bombers is already like clubbing baby seals...  I say we need to give them more advantages..

[thndregg]

Killing bombers is already like clubbing baby seals...

The ones that are easiest to shoot down are those that don't plan for contingencies and don't have the patience to attempt a well executed bomb run.

[Scca]

The ones that are easiest to shoot down are those that don't plan for contingencies and don't have the patience to attempt a well executed bomb run.

... and the ones who seem to complain the most about bomber guns, are the ones who don't have the patience to set up a proper attack on bombers to keep from getting killed...

I can look at EVERY death I have to bombers and tell you EXACTLY what I did wrong...

[Zoney]

Randy1, This month, I have 56 bomber kills and ZERO deaths.  Please let me help you with your technique.  Feel free to PM me anytime and you can wing up with me.  I will show you exactly how I do it.  It is not only my goal to kill them with out dying, but to kill them without taking one ping so I can keep re-arming and hunting.  I fly Knights.  You will need to bring patience, everything else I can teach you sir 

[Vinkman]

The crew screaming on the squack box is no where near as effective as F3 mode. Also it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO easy to jump between gun positions that a single person jumping between them, is more effective than a manned crew yelling out where enemy planes are.

In my opinion, a single person jumping between the guns is already better than the bombers crews yelling on the radio. F3 mode is a level beyond what is needed.

If you are getting snuck up on in a bomber formation your SA stinks. It has nothing to do with who or who is not in all the gun positions. 


That siad the problem with buffs is not F3. It's that the damage model for the fuselage seems way to tough compared to the wings. 

[Karnak]

The crew screaming on the squack box is no where near as effective as F3 mode. Also it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO easy to jump between gun positions that a single person jumping between them, is more effective than a manned crew yelling out where enemy planes are.

In my opinion, a single person jumping between the guns is already better than the bombers crews yelling on the radio. F3 mode is a level beyond what is needed.

If you are getting snuck up on in a bomber formation your SA stinks. It has nothing to do with who or who is not in all the gun positions. 


That siad the problem with buffs is not F3. It's that the damage model for the fuselage seems way to tough compared to the wings. 

Bombers are essentially free kills.  I don't know why people want them to be even more vulnerable.

[caldera]

Randy1, This month, I have 56 bomber kills and ZERO deaths.  Please let me help you with your technique.  Feel free to PM me anytime and you can wing up with me.  I will show you exactly how I do it.  It is not only my goal to kill them with out dying, but to kill them without taking one ping so I can keep re-arming and hunting.  I fly Knights.  You will need to bring patience, everything else I can teach you sir 

What he said.  This month, I have 92 kills of level bombers and 1 death.  That 1 death was me getting impatient and colliding like a doofus.  You have all the cards against bombers.  If you are regularly getting beat by bombers, seek the help of a qualified trainer.  Or an alt-tard, like Zoney. 

[Wiley]

Bombers are essentially free kills.

Assuming you're in position, in no rush, and in a decent aircraft for killing bombers.  Mostly the first 2.  If you're not in position and have time pressure if you're trying to get them before the drop, they can be tough.

I don't know why people want them to be even more vulnerable.

I chalk it up to lack of patience/desire to climb.  Unfortunately if they changed bombers to what most of these people have in mind, someone who knows what they're doing and is in position would be in pretty much 0 danger on their attack.

Wiley.

[Randy1]

Randy1, This month, I have 56 bomber kills and ZERO deaths.  Please let me help you with your technique.  Feel free to PM me anytime and you can wing up with me.  I will show you exactly how I do it.  It is not only my goal to kill them with out dying, but to kill them without taking one ping so I can keep re-arming and hunting.  I fly Knights.  You will need to bring patience, everything else I can teach you sir 

Thank you Zoney for the offer. 

I should point out that I do not hunt bombers specifically.  Nor do I fly high cover.  The bombers I go after are those that are in on attacking runs to our base or those I think might turn back for another run.  Most of the time it is a climbing pursuit which all knows is a bad starting point to attack bombers with a low survival rate without heavy fire power. 

I should also point out that I do very well killing fighters when flying B17s without using F3.  Not the best, but can kill more of them than they can kill of me unless we are jumped by hordes of bomber hunters.

 

Off the top of my head the big winners with F3 view are those bombers that do not have gun views top, bottom, front and tail like a B26 and a Tu2.  They have a perfect view to fly avoidance from F3 when they should have blind spots

I still think a comprise would be to have standard numbering system for bomber guns with no F3 or a view from F3 but no plane or gun control.  Even both worked together would be fine.

 I was surprised too to find out too an attached gunner also has F3 view so you can have two F3 views going at the same time.

Keep in mind too this is a discussion not a witch hunt.  If F3 stays as it is, so be it.

[Lusche]

Most of the time it is a climbing pursuit which all knows is a bad starting point to attack bombers with a low survival rate without heavy fire power. 

It's not a bad starting point at all. Unless you slowly climb to the bomber's butt until you are D500 on his low 6, instead of taking another 3 minutes to get into a proper attack position first.
Which is unfortunately happening a lot. 10-15 minutes of climb and pursuit, and then too impatient to spend another three, screaming on 200 how overmodeled bombers are while going down in a death spiral.

As a bomber pilot, each time I see a fighter overtake me and continue climb past co-alt, I know I'm really in trouble. But few actually do.

[Randy1]

It's not a bad starting point at all. Unless you slowly climb to the bomber's butt until you are D500 on his low 6, instead of taking another 3 minutes to get into a proper attack position first.
Which is unfortunately happening a lot. 10-15 minutes of climb and pursuit, and then too impatient to spend another three, screaming on 200 how overmodeled bombers are while going down in a death spiral.

As a bomber pilot, each time I see a fighter overtake me and continue climb past co-alt, I know I'm really in trouble. But few actually do.

I never tune to 200.

Three minutes in some planes yes but B26s and Tu2s can be tough to climb to and catch in average performance planes .  Even empty B17s can take a full tank of fuel to catch if they have a lead and start climbing or a proper dive for maximum speed.  There are planes of course that can do that faster than others.  A P38 with a load of fuel will be pulled out of a base fight trying to get a good firing position on bombers.  A bad choice for base defense if they are empty.

[bozon]

Most bombers that are free kills will be free kills as a fighter with the same player in them. It has nothing to do with the performance or lethality of the guns. A bomber player beyond the clueless level is a much harder target to beat - and by beat I mean kill all 3 bombers. Yes, of course if you come with 5000 feet alt advantage and ahead of the bombers they are easy to kill, but so is a 262 in similar conditions.

Statistics in fighter vs. bomber can be misleading. Killing one drone and RTB'ing with a smoking engine will count fully towards the fighter, but the bomber will still drop hangars / level the town / etc with the other 2 bombers. A bomber also cannot finish a wounded fighter, so the common scenario in which fighter attacking the bombers does no real damage, getting smoked, and managing to RTB does not even enter the statistics. Not to mention the multitude bomber kills from bomb&bail, 0-alt carpet bombing, losing drones in turns without even being fired uppon, etc.

Bombers are not hard to kill, but neither are fighters, except that to take out one clueless player in a bomber takes much more ammo than to kill a good one in a fighter.

[Lusche]

Yes, of course if you come with 5000 feet alt advantage and ahead of the bombers they are easy to kill, but so is a 262 in similar conditions.ghter.

"In similar conditions"  - which are so much easier to achieve against bombers than against a 262 any other fighter. It's not even close to be comparable. Try to get yourself into postion vs a 262 and do the same against bombers. With three notable (and quite rare exceptions), bombers are relatively easy to catch, and there's little they can do about (unless flying at 30k+, but even most bomber pilots wont bother with this very time consuming tactic)

When I'm in the 262 and see a fighter 5k above me in time I can still run away in most cases  unless I really messed up and fly 300 mph near the deck. When I'm in a B-17 and see a fighter 5k above me, there's about nothing I can do but hope he sucks.

Even when I shoot the fighter down, he often can come back. Like yesterday where I was attacked twice by the same player, once over my target area and once while flying home, despite flying at 24k. Fortunately it was a 6 o clock attacker as well.
Today I was less fortunate. Three times my missions were stopped cold by enemy fighters, even though in one case I lost all three planes. I came in at 14K (B-24), 18k (B-17) and 21k (G4M). In the last two runs, I was jumped by much higher fighetrs each time and immedieately knew I was screwed and that I could not hope to fulfill my mission at all.