Author Topic: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery  (Read 9592 times)

Offline Zerstorer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
Re: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2014, 05:46:16 AM »
Exactly

I would quote Ink... but he gets all indignant and uptight when I do so.   :lol

He is correct to a degree... but only to a degree. What he leaves out speaks volumes.

yes, the ride doesn't matter once you know ACM... or rather, it doesn't matter as much if you happen to find yourself in a disadvantage against one or more superior performing planes. it most certainly does matter when the opposing planes do not have equal performance characteristics.... it then simply adds to the disadvantage the opposition faces (assuming the opposition is not as skilled) :joystick:

If the plane truly didn't matter, then all the ACM "masters" out there would fly the biggest hunks of garbage in the game. And some do so no doubt, for the challenge of it. Many do not, however, for various reasons.  :lol
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 07:05:52 AM by Zerstorer »
The Once and Former Fulcrum

In my experience, nothing is ever what it seems to be, but everything is exactly what it is.

Offline Triton28

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2248
Re: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2014, 06:55:02 AM »
Flap and throttle considerations are more important in the Ki, making it harder to fly within the same envelope as the Spit16.  I've heard some call the 84 a 38 trainer and I tend to agree.  It does just about everything well but requires more of the pilot than just yanking and banking to be dangerous in. 
Fighting spirit one must have. Even if a man lacks some of the other qualifications, he can often make up for it in fighting spirit. -Robin Olds
      -AoM-


Offline Zerstorer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
Re: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2014, 07:05:00 AM »
Flap and throttle considerations are more important in the Ki, making it harder to fly within the same envelope as the Spit16.  I've heard some call the 84 a 38 trainer and I tend to agree.  It does just about everything well but requires more of the pilot than just yanking and banking to be dangerous in. 

I noted the Ki does not turn as well without flaps, but again the differences are not so pronounced that the plane is at a significant disadvantage if the pilot does not do so.  As for throttle control, I disagree as it is always a concern regardless of the plane including a Spit16. 

Does the Ki require a bit more thought than a Spit? Yes. But only a bit.  Does it require as much thought as a P47 or P51 to use as a turnfighter? No.  Why? Because it's ideally suited to the close-in dogflight role. 

It's a VERY uber plane for what it is designed to do.  Anyone who says otherwise either doesn't understand the plane or is being intentionally disingenuous.
The Once and Former Fulcrum

In my experience, nothing is ever what it seems to be, but everything is exactly what it is.

Offline DmonSlyr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6311
Re: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2014, 07:30:30 AM »
Go fly a spit 8 or 16 tonight and then go fly a ki84 or vice versa. You will be able to see how much easier it is to turn inside of planes earlier in a spit. You will get better jumps on planes. Quicker loop over immelmans, quicker responses and easier handling.  You have to be able to get the flaps down quickly in a KI84 which is really tough. Those flaps do not like to come out. This puts it at a harder disadvantage because a spit has the ability to get around on planes extremely quickly while deploying flaps earlier.
The Damned(est. 1988)
-=Army of Muppets=-
2014 & 2018 KoTH ToC Champion

Offline GhostCDB

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1730
Re: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2014, 09:36:52 AM »
See Violator that is where patience is key. But with the dweebery at an all time high (Snailman don't comment) it is almost vital you kill your enemy as quickly as possible.
Top Gun

Offline Zerstorer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
Re: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2014, 09:52:01 AM »
Go fly a spit 8 or 16 tonight and then go fly a ki84 or vice versa. You will be able to see how much easier it is to turn inside of planes earlier in a spit. You will get better jumps on planes. Quicker loop over immelmans, quicker responses and easier handling.  You have to be able to get the flaps down quickly in a KI84 which is really tough. Those flaps do not like to come out. This puts it at a harder disadvantage because a spit has the ability to get around on planes extremely quickly while deploying flaps earlier.

No need.  I've flown all three extensively over the 10 years I've played this game.  

You are correct the that it is easier to perform these actions in the Spits than in the Ki.  I'm not disputing that both Spits are "better" in a turnfight.  My dispute is with the implication that the differences are so vast it prevents the Ki from being classified as a "noob killing / seal clubbing" monster in its own right.  That opinion is apparently desputed by a number of players...usually by overstating the gaps that exist between the Spit8/16 and Ki as a qualifier e.g. "Oh, well....the Ki is much harder to get kills in than the Spit <8/16> because of <x>".  

*ahem* I'd be remiss if I didn't point out many (most?) of the players who do so fly the Ki regularly.... :old:

You are also neglecting to mention the other intangibles, both defensive and offensive, which the Ki84 possesses that have to also be factored in when deciding if it's an "uber" ride or not.  

So again, in every way it is a dominant knife fighter.  To the degree of a Spit16, no, but its really really close.   Does it take a little more experience to get every last ounce out of it, sure.  But I further dispute the implicaiton of some that it requires years of experience to do so.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 09:57:05 AM by Zerstorer »
The Once and Former Fulcrum

In my experience, nothing is ever what it seems to be, but everything is exactly what it is.

Offline JunkyII

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8428
Re: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2014, 10:43:23 AM »
I don't think Slash was in disagreement about the KI, think he was just thinking what a lot are already thinking...what is a scrub pilot like Fulcrum bragging about 4 kills for?
DFC Member
Proud Member of Pigs on the Wing
"Yikes"

Offline JUDAS

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2014, 10:50:14 AM »
Im gonna have to agree with violator.  I fought him in my KI against his f4u, I lost but MAN! HE WAS FLYING PERFECTLY!  its like he said it seemed to "float better" I thought KI floated but man I was wrong.  I also Fought Simon last night and now im thinkin...I GOTTA FLY F4u!
I read on the BBS before that f4u has the best cornering at a certain speed.. IDK! whatever Simon did was almost magical!  he must know the "sweetspot" speed.   <S>

Offline Zerstorer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
Re: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2014, 11:27:47 AM »
I don't think Slash was in disagreement about the KI, think he was just thinking what a lot are already thinking...what is a scrub pilot like Fulcrum bragging about 4 kills for?

 :lol  Not bragging at all!  But thank you for re-enforcing the point I have made about the Ki  

i.e. a "scrub" pilot can go out and land four kills without difficulty in it.


Come on....follow the logic....I know you can do it!  :lol
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 11:47:33 AM by Zerstorer »
The Once and Former Fulcrum

In my experience, nothing is ever what it seems to be, but everything is exactly what it is.

Offline Skyyr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1754
Re: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2014, 11:45:40 AM »
Im gonna have to agree with violator.  I fought him in my KI against his f4u, I lost but MAN! HE WAS FLYING PERFECTLY!  its like he said it seemed to "float better" I thought KI floated but man I was wrong.  I also Fought Simon last night and now im thinkin...I GOTTA FLY F4u!
I read on the BBS before that f4u has the best cornering at a certain speed.. IDK! whatever Simon did was almost magical!  he must know the "sweetspot" speed.   <S>

The -4 is easily one of the best planes in the game and a lot of what appears to be "skill" is nothing more than inherent plane performance. If you think of it in terms of what the plane can do, instead of what the plane is doing in comparison to your (different) plane, it's actually much easier to fight and kill.

The trick to beating the -4 is getting it to turn, and then taking it vertical. Once it's slowed, it's dead, provided you fight the appropriate fight. Even the best -4 sticks in the game can't compensate for the -4's lack of acceleration.

Fight the plane, not the pilot.
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
190 - ---

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 29-7

"Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Offline Skyyr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1754
Re: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2014, 11:48:02 AM »
I don't think Slash was in disagreement about the KI, think he was just thinking what a lot are already thinking...what is a scrub pilot like Fulcrum bragging about 4 kills for?

Fulcrum a "scrub pilot"? Coming from you, that's rich. 

:ahand
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
190 - ---

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 29-7

"Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Offline Zerstorer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
Re: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2014, 11:54:34 AM »
Fulcrum a "scrub pilot"? Coming from you, that's rich. 

:ahand

*shrug*

He's entitled to his opinion.  I have no issue with him having one....especially when he voices it in an effort to insult me but simply ends up supporting my stated position.  :rofl
The Once and Former Fulcrum

In my experience, nothing is ever what it seems to be, but everything is exactly what it is.

Offline craz07

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1437
Re: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2014, 11:55:50 AM »
Dude, the f4u-4 fu**ked me the bunghole one time, with all it's high praise, "its such a great turner" and what-not i thought so highly of it.   I got into a drawn-out circle of death turning match with bricker in an la-7.. did a few roundabouts just missing shots to kill him.  Well, he astonished me by getting around on me in that thing, and shooting me down, I think he was as surprised as I was.. maybe I was doing something wrong, I believe I had the flaps extended and wsa completely crawling this thing on the deck around in super tight circles..  I thought maybe a spitfire or jap plane coud possibly get around on me, not an la!! I was pissed!
Don't let others drag you down with their own hatred and fear

Offline DmonSlyr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6311
Re: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2014, 11:56:42 AM »
The -4 is easily one of the best planes in the game and a lot of what appears to be "skill" is nothing more than inherent plane performance. If you think of it in terms of what the plane can do, instead of what the plane is doing in comparison to your (different) plane, it's actually much easier to fight and kill.

The trick to beating the -4 is getting it to turn, and then taking it vertical. Once it's slowed, it's dead, provided you fight the appropriate fight. Even the best -4 sticks in the game can't compensate for the -4's lack of acceleration.

Fight the plane, not the pilot.

I'd say the biggest disadvantage for any F4U is the lack of ecceleration, which makes it pretty easy to run and get away from if you have a faster plane. This can also be detrimental vs a ki84. If you are lucky you will be able to out rope it after turning but vs  -4 thats pretty tough to do
The Damned(est. 1988)
-=Army of Muppets=-
2014 & 2018 KoTH ToC Champion

Offline DmonSlyr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6311
Re: Ki-84 vs. Brain Surgery
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2014, 11:58:35 AM »
Dude, the f4u-4 fu**ked me the bunghole one time, with all it's high praise, "its such a great turner" and what-not i thought so highly of it.   I got into a drawn-out circle of death turning match with bricker in an la-7.. did a few roundabouts just missing shots to kill him.  Well, he astonished me by getting around on me in that thing, and shooting me down, I think he was as surprised as I was.. maybe I was doing something wrong, I believe I had the flaps extended and wsa completely crawling this thing on the deck around in super tight circles..  I thought maybe a spitfire or jap plane coud possibly get around on me, not an la!! I was pissed!

I'm not trying to be a dixk, but there were prob a number of things you were doing wrong.
The Damned(est. 1988)
-=Army of Muppets=-
2014 & 2018 KoTH ToC Champion