Larry Vickers on 9mm/Handgun Lethality

[Gman]

If you don't know who Larry Vickers is, he was with Delta for 20 years, and a huge .45/1911 shooter, he's probably shot more of just .45 alone than most of us have of combined calibers, even enthusiasts/work/competition shooters.  He's a well known 1911 expert, I took his 1911 armorer course after doing an explosive entry course with his company back in the later 2000's.  He's a very respected authority and instructor on most things regarding shooting, including historical stuff.

Anyhow, his latest diatribe -  Larry Vickers: agree completely - modern 9mm loadings are very effective for handgun ammo and make using any other caliber questionable. 

This was his latest statement regarding a long yet interesting article on the subject everyone here was discussing recently.

It's from the FBI's recent study of the 9mm, modern ammunition/bullet construction for it, and the effect of this on overall suitability and lethality of the 9mm compared with other typical LE options such as 40, 45, 357Sig, and the like.  Again, it's long, but a very good read.  Conclusion below, remember, this is the FBI's and other consultants working with the FBI's opinion.

CONCLUSION

While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm Luger in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, no discernible increase in terminal performance.

Other law enforcement organizations seem to be making the move back to 9mm Luger taking advantage of the new technologies which are being applied to 9mm Luger projectiles. These organizations are providing their armed personnel the best chance of surviving a deadly force encounter since they can expect faster and more accurate shot strings, higher magazine capacities (similar sized weapons) and all of the terminal performance which can be expected from any law enforcement caliber projectile.

Given the above realities and the fact that numerous ammunition manufacturers now make 9mm Luger service ammunition with outstanding premium line law enforcement projectiles, the move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel.

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/

[MrRiplEy[H]]

If you don't know who Larry Vickers is, he was with Delta for 20 years, and a huge .45/1911 shooter, he's probably shot more of just .45 alone than most of us have of combined calibers, even enthusiasts/work/competition shooters.  He's a well known 1911 expert, I took his 1911 armorer course after doing an explosive entry course with his company back in the later 2000's.  He's a very respected authority and instructor on most things regarding shooting, including historical stuff.

Anyhow, his latest diatribe -  Larry Vickers: agree completely - modern 9mm loadings are very effective for handgun ammo and make using any other caliber questionable. 

This was his latest statement regarding a long yet interesting article on the subject everyone here was discussing recently.

It's from the FBI's recent study of the 9mm, modern ammunition/bullet construction for it, and the effect of this on overall suitability and lethality of the 9mm compared with other typical LE options such as 40, 45, 357Sig, and the like.  Again, it's long, but a very good read.  Conclusion below, remember, this is the FBI's and other consultants working with the FBI's opinion.

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/

A smaller, gentler way to kill? 

[DaveBB]

Sounds like an advertisement for Luger.

[Rich46yo]

I went back to a 9 round 9mm. What I do now requires a lot of walking and I cant handle a full kit on my waist anymore due to the hip and back pain. I have zero concerns of that SW3953 and the 110 grn +P+'s I have in it. I for sure, after much experience, have no illusions of what will or wont happen if you dont hit vital areas of a BG if he is putting you in fear of life no matter what you have stuffed in a magazine.

Thats why I thought it was madness to go to all the trouble of changing military calibers when we cant even get decent medical help for these young guys and gal's after they get screwed up and hurt after protecting their country in a war zone.

[Triton28]

As much as I love my .45's you can't ever really argue with Larry Vickers.   G19 ftw!   

[Slash27]

As much as I love my .45's you can't ever really argue with Larry Vickers.   G19 ftw!   

Recently switched to my G19 from my 1911 for duty carry. Still very much love my WC though.

[Maverick]

Pretty much what I had said earlier. Modern loadings with the newer projectiles (slugs) have made the 9mm a very good choice for civilian and Police application. Unfortunately that will not translate to the military situation because they are still limited to the old ball slug.

[SmokinLoon]

The caliber and platform mean jack if the user can't hit the broad side of a barn.  I've always been a proponent for user friendly and accuracy being primary over platform/brand name and caliber. I've also always been a proponent for leaving all the high tech gadget BS on the shelves and buy ammo instead for practice.  This goes for more so for the $2000 AR15 guys than it does for the stock handgun guys, but the same applies.  Practice!!! 

[saggs]

 

Uhhgg.  Caliber wars when it comes to defensive handguns are so played out.  Here's a clue..

IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER!

All handguns are weak-sauce compared to long guns, the only reason we carry handguns is because it's to cumbersome to carry a long gun everywhere.  Whether you carry .380, .38 special, .357 magnum, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, 9mm, 10mm, .45 ACP, .44 magnum  blah, blah, blah.

The round you carry doesn't matter so much, as that you know how to use the handgun.  The greatest most all-powerful-magic-super-duper cartridge and handgun combination will do you no good if you either aren't comfortable wearing it, operating it, or can't hit jack squat with it.

Find a handgun that's reliable, that you can operate with your eyes closed and in any position, that you're comfortable wearing, and that will shoot where you point it.  When you find it, that's the gun for you... don't worry about what caliber it is.  Then, practice, practice, practice.

[Vraciu]

9mm has been perfectly lethal for years (since the early-90s). With Cor-Bon 115 gr JHP I never worried a bit about effectiveness.  The only reason I stepped up to .40 S&W and .357 SIG was the magazine ban Clintonochio signed into law.   If you limit me to ten rounds in the mag I am gonna' carry something more powerful.  

The 9 is fine for civilians using JHPs and the superior controllability of the round is an advantage for double taps and multiple assailants, especially for female shooters or smaller dudes.

Heck, a .22LR will do just fine if you hit the right spot.

[Rich46yo]

We had some bad experiences with the early 147 grn subsonics in the early years. We shot one guy, a drunken railroad cop, like 17 times once and he lived to Lie about it after. Many shots were torso shots and they simply didnt transfer energy or open up meaningful wound channels. For years we had a bad time with that round and it reverberated around Law Enforcement with many agencies experiencing the same. If I remember right it was the FBI that first embraced it which caused LE around the country to do so also.

They sucked. I never carried 147s SS, I'd carry a wheelgun with .38 +P LHPs instead. Eventually ammo makers improved the 147 grn round and also introduced MUCH better +P and +P+ rounds. But even with the early 147s if you hit a BG in a vital spot it would put them down, but it was the in between shots that failed to perform.

And in the fury and fear of a gunfight it aint so easy to hit vital areas all the time. Bullseye shooting paper it aint, having a BG shoot at you will flat out rattle most folks. And with handguns you need all the edge you can get.

[Vraciu]

We had some bad experiences with the early 147 grn subsonics in the early years. We shot one guy, a drunken railroad cop, like 17 times once and he lived to Lie about it after. Many shots were torso shots and they simply didnt transfer energy or open up meaningful wound channels. For years we had a bad time with that round and it reverberated around Law Enforcement with many agencies experiencing the same. If I remember right it was the FBI that first embraced it which caused LE around the country to do so also.

They sucked. I never carried 147s SS, I'd carry a wheelgun with .38 +P LHPs instead. Eventually ammo makers improved the 147 grn round and also introduced MUCH better +P and +P+ rounds. But even with the early 147s if you hit a BG in a vital spot it would put them down, but it was the in between shots that failed to perform.

And in the fury and fear of a gunfight it aint so easy to hit vital areas all the time. Bullseye shooting paper it aint, having a BG shoot at you will flat out rattle most folks. And with handguns you need all the edge you can get.

I was never a fan of the 147-grain round.   We did a lot of testing using ballistic gelatin, watermelons, and my favorite....water logged phone books.   The 115-grain +P always seemed like it would be more lethal.  Experience has borne that out it seems.

The 147 was allegedly for going through windshields and such as I recall.   This made it underperform everywhere else.