Conserving E in a merge fight?

[Randy1]

Yesterday I lost a good fight to LilMark.  I was in a P38L with a good fighting weight with say 50% fuel left.  He was in P47M.  We were co-alt and speed, I am guessing, was about equal.  Pretty much as fair of a fight as you could ask for in the MA with no other reds or greens around.  I knew it was going to be an E fight.  We merged several times until he got a good guns on pass and I got a pilot wound.  No shame in losing to LilMark, he is one fine stick, but I want to learn from this fight.

  My thought during the fight was having spent several tours in a P47M that I had a slight advantage in climb so I wanted to work the fight up.  It was working slowly but I blew a loop pulling too much g to get a guns on and lost more E than I could survive without.

What do you look for in a in plane and out of plane maneuver dive angle and speed to set up for the next merge.  Does one just shoot for the dive and speed recovery to reach a given speed in the 38 as an example of say 300mph for a vertical move or 250mph for a more flat turn?  Do you glance at the G meter and use that number?

[morfiend]

 There are just too many variables to say do this or do that!

   It would help if you supplied a film of this fight to see what exactly happened and where things went wrong or what you could have done differently.

   Given the matchup I would have taken the 47 up,up,up! Use the climb of the 38 and never give up a foot of alt. If you used a spiral climb the 47 would eventually run out of E and have to level out or stall. That is when you could capitalize your position and rolled over and killed the 47,although I think Mak wouldnt fall for it and just followed in a lag pursuit but without film I'm only guessing.

  Also with film you can see the speeds of the planes,that would tell you if you were infact co-E or not!


   I know this isnt much help but when it come to combat and ACM there are just too many variables to say do A or do B,there is "NO" magic move that always works!



    

[Randy1]

I do appreciate your reply Morfiend .  Helpful as always.

I have used the spiral up move before but if the M still has wep then can pick at you with a wide pattern of those eight fifties.  I did try to pull the 47 straight up in a rope but he countered with a good move that gave me a bad angle coming down and gave him a lead move coming up.

I do have a good throttle-rudder reverse with the 38 I can use on the spiral but it teeters on a bad stall if I over shoot the turn.

In a more wider scope question which might work better here is what I was wondering was how much attention do folks pay to speed and G gauges when in a good fight?

[The Fugitive]

I don't fly by the number either, I go more by feel.

If he's following you hes either saving E or already low enough that he isn't going to pull for the shot. If he is on you and pushing for the shot then he has E to spare. Those are the biggest clues I go by. After each merge you have to see what hes doing all over again. I try not to push for a shot until I think I have him on the ropes. The rest of the time Im working to stay out of his guns, conserve my E and watch him for any sign he's slipping.

With out film it
s hard to say what you did wrong, and you may not have, LilMak just may have done things a bit better, and in those tight fights thats all it takes.

[FLS]

Your best sustained turn is the speed and load factor that give you the best turn rate and radius. When you maintain this turn you do not lose E. This is true in flat turns and vertical turns.

What makes vertical turns more complicated is the gravity vector changing in relation to your flight path. This is the energy egg concept. You can imagine it as gravity increasing and decreasing  your weight and thrust in different parts of a loop. That's a simplification but it works. As you go up you slow down, over the top gravity decreases your g load, descending your speed increases, and on the bottom your g load increases.

Flaps lower your best sustained turn speed. When you get too slow for your best sustained no flaps turn you may be at your first or second notch best sustained turn speed. Remember you only lose E when you exceed your best sustained turn. Also, flaps mostly increase lift for the first 50% of extension and mostly increase drag for the remainder. Don't use full flaps unless you want to slow down.

Combining these concepts will let you maintain or increase E in a fight.

[Randy1]

Yes I am familiar with the egg concept.  At the top I use one notch but on a flat turn. I use one notch of laps in one second burst you might call it to pull the nose around a touch more.  Sometimes I do burn more E than I need too by not backing off the elevator when I extend the flaps.  Delirum got me backing off on the throttle on the downside and that helps rounding out the egg.

Thanks for the reply FLS

[FLS]

Keep in mind if you use one notch over the top it should ideally be because your speed requires one notch for sufficient lift for your best sustained turn.

When you descend your speed is only a turning problem if it's over your corner speed. You can limit your speed with throttle reduction but you can also limit it with drag from lift. If you slow enough from hard turning you don't need to reduce throttle.

Note the speed differences across the top and bottom when you compare oblique loops at different angles to pure vertical loops.

[Ack-Ack]

I was wondering was how much attention do folks pay to speed and G gauges when in a good fight?

I use my G meter to make sure that I'm not pulling too many G's and burn energy needlessly while maneuvering.

ack-ack

[FLS]

You can also just pull to the stall horn as long as you don't go below the minimum speed for best sustained turn.

[Puma44]

Better to pull to the tunnel.

[FLS]

Better to pull to the tunnel.

Good point. If he's fast enough he'll get tunnel vision before the stall horn. Hopefully he won't pull harder at that point. 

[Puma44]

Yep, total blackout and a stall, bad combination.   

[Randy1]

I use my G meter to make sure that I'm not pulling too many G's and burn energy needlessly while maneuvering.

ack-ack

I will start to develop and eye for the G gauge ack-ack

 Is there a G reading you hold too in a E conservation maneuver in the P-38?

Better to pull to the tunnel.

At that G level Puma and FLS, are you not committing to a guns on or lose situation in that merge?

[Someguy63]

Wait, where is the G gauge in the P38?

[Randy1]

Wait, where is the G gauge in the P38?

To the left of the trim indicator panel, lower right hand side.