OK...so who flies the LA-7?

[Wmaker]

And 4 x 20mm

4 x 23mm actually...

[Tilt]

The revised exhaust pattern allowed for less drag around the cowling and more efficient engine cooling which allowed the exhaust 'flaps' to be feathered closer under WEP.

All LA7 WEP performance charts are with the cooling vanes front and back of engine fully feathered. Hence again it's all about drag not power.

The one characteristic the LA5FN can use in game over the LA7 is it scrubs E quicker so ( when you want to) it's easier to avoid the over shoot. ......

Low speed accel of both are about the same.... Your fuel weight will make a bigger difference

[GScholz]

No, it's not important. But it is interesting that two people can hold such different views about something that I would think is very basic and obvious.

Your position is that there is no difference that the pilot can feel between the two aircraft. Any feeling that the La7 performs better is subjective and wrong as proved by the speed and climb charts.

I think it is so obvious that I am right, there is a difference and an experienced player can definitely feel it, that there really is not point trying to prove it to you.

So...how about:

You prove that there is no discernible difference that one can feel between the two and then I might take your position more seriously. Don't keep stubbornly throwing those speed charts at me, it makes you seem ignorant to base how the aircraft 'feels to fly' on a speed chart.

"Feeling" is subjective, not scientific. You're whole argument is ridiculous. You can say you "feel" this or that, but without actually looking at the instruments and comparing the readings it is completely useless. 

[mechanic]

so you are saying that they perform exactly the same?

[GScholz]

Low and slow the difference in performance is negligible.

[GScholz]

Turning radius:

La 5: 622 without flaps, 469 with full flaps.

La 7: 619 without flaps, 469 with full flaps.

The difference without flaps is well within the margin of error for Mosq's tests. Difference in climb rate is also within 3% at sea level and diminishing quickly with altitude.

"It felt faster this time" said no test pilot ever...

[mechanic]

Quoting charts again......turning circle? Means very little unless you are using BFM in a fight. Certainly means very little in regards to how the plane feels to fly.

What about cross control handling, overall stability, stall idiosyncrasies, control authority at different speeds? All you can do it seems is quote the text books. Do you not have any experience in the last 10 years in either plane that you can draw conclusions from?

your answer is 'the difference is negligible'

Are you saying then that it would be possible or impossible to feel the difference between the planes?

[GScholz]

Both planes have the same wings, the same control surfaces and cockpit controls, same fuselage, same engine. You can "feel" all the difference you want. Doesn't change the facts.

[GScholz]

If I were a betting man I'd bet the only real difference is that you know you're in an La-7 or an La-5 and your own preconceptions are the cause of your feeling.

[Lusche]

Quoting charts again......turning circle? Means very little unless you are using BFM in a fight. Certainly means very little in regards to how the plane feels to fly.

What about cross control handling, overall stability, stall idiosyncrasies, control authority at different speeds? All you can do it seems is quote the text books. Do you not have any experience in the last 10 years in either plane that you can draw conclusions from?

your answer is 'the difference is negligible'

Are you saying then that it would be possible or impossible to feel the difference between the planes?

I don't feel any significant difference between those two in handling, satbility and so on. As far as I am cocnerned, they virtually fly and fight the same to be, only notable differences are high speed acceleration and top speed

[mechanic]

Both planes have the same wings, the same control surfaces and cockpit controls, same fuselage, same engine. You can "feel" all the difference you want. Doesn't change the facts.

If I were a betting man I'd bet the only real difference is that you know you're in an La-7 or an La-5 and your own preconceptions are the cause of your feeling.

So you are taking all human intuition out of the flying of the planes and basing everything on their statistics? I can see why you haven't played in so many years. Must be a very boring game for you. Still, there is SOME statistical difference between the two planes, you have admitted this much yourself. I, personally, can feel it when flying them.

I don't feel any significant difference between those two in handling, satbility and so on. As far as I am cocnerned, they virtually fly and fight the same to be, only notable differences are high speed acceleration and top speed

Do you ever fly them at under 100mph for hours at a time in the DA practicing rolling and vertical stall fights 1v1?

Do you ever deliberately fly to the edge of the envelope in any plane?

I am almost certain neither of you two have ever displayed any innovation or style to me in a dogfight and therefore I doubt you will ever understand how a player can feel the subtle differences between two such similar planes.

[Lusche]

Do you ever fly them at under 100mph for hours at a time in the DA practicing rolling and vertical stall fights 1v1?

Not for hours, but yes, I did.

Do you ever deliberately fly to the edge of the envelope in any plane?

Yes.

I am almost certain neither of you two have ever displayed any innovation or style to me in a dogfight and therefore I doubt you will ever understand how a player can feel the subtle differences between two such similar planes.

Seeng an AH trainer cops member taking cheap jabs at someone just expressing his own impressions in a particular plane is a sad thing. I would have expected something different.

[mechanic]

Not for hours, but yes, I did.

Then do it for hours and maybe you will be able to feel the difference between the La7 and the La5FN.

Yes.

Then you must know that beyond the science of charts and statistics there is also a 'feeling' to flying these virtual planes.

Seeing an AH trainer cops member taking cheap jabs at someone just expressing his own impressions in a particular plane is a sad thing. I would have expected something different.

Please explain what I have said that is a cheap jab.

My questions are pertinent to the discussion as well as genuine curiosities of mine considering your view of these two aircraft.

My statement about innovation and style is simply true. If you think it is unjust, then invite me to the DA/TA and show me some innovation and/or style.

[pipz]

 There were steps in the improvements over the original LA5. The improvements would have put delays on the manufacture which is one of the reason steps were taken. The LA5F had the M82 engine which was carbureted, trunked exhaust pipes and cut down rear fuselage. The LA5FN had a fuel injected M-82 motor which allowed higher supercharging boost. A longer air intake was adapted to supply the engine and individual exhaust pipes were introduced. The engineers also shed weight off the FN wherever they could. The la5F and LA5FN were built side by side. Then came the LA7 with further refinements which included a thinner wing, moving the oil cooler from under the nose to further back and buried in the fuselage, relocation of the air intake from nose to wing root. The whole time the manufacturing process was mastered which led to a higher quality finished product.

[pipz]

I have to side with Mechanic on this. To me anyway the LA5 seems more stable at very slow speed when I am in a tight turn. Maybe because of the thicker wing I don't know. I also can not catch a la7 on the deck with a 5 from an equal start. I also can not disengage from spitfires and what have ya in the la5 as easily as I can in the 7. The 7 seems to stay in the air longer on the fuel provided. I guess those aerodynamic improvements are helping. To me saying the 5 and 7 are the same is the same as saying the Spit 9 and 16 are the same. I guess ya could....I guess...........

Tally Ho!