Author Topic: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!  (Read 3781 times)

Offline Brooke

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Re: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2014, 02:55:13 AM »
My opinion.

There is an enormous bubble in bond prices (clearly, since bond yields are near zero, and bond price moves as the inverse of the yield) and a smaller bubble in stock prices (as judged by metrics like the Shiller PE).  However, the Fed is still printing enormous amounts of money.  Eventually bubbles burst, but they can inflate for a while.  The bubbles could burst when the Fed starts raising interest rates or a while after that.  Or, because people anticipate that things will crash when the Fed does that, it could happen before the Fed does that.  Or other world events could trigger it.

I've been an active investor since about 1990, and helped to found a hedge fund in the mid 1990's (so worked that way in the finance industry -- we even managed some Soros money at one point).  Since 2008, I have never felt so unsure of where markets are headed or what is a good investment.

Today, there is a war going on between inflation and deflation.  Since these are opposites, what works well for investing under one condition is poor in the other, and vice versa.  If bad deflation happens, the best investment is cash.  If bad inflation happens, the best investment is gold or commodities.  Prior to bad inflation or deflation, because of money printing and ultra-low interest rates, bonds and the stock market have been by far the best investments with cash and gold being bad.

People understand the risk of inflation.  If there are x dollars in existence, and the Fed doubles that to 2x (which is what it has done since 2008), it's easy to see that prices could go up by a factor of 2.

How can there be a risk of deflation with the Fed printing money like crazy?  It can happen when that printed money just doesn't get out and circulating into the general economy.

Both of these things are what is going on.  The Fed is printing like crazy, but that money isn't completely making it into the general economy.  Whichever one wins, inflation or deflation, it will be horrible for our economy.  I fear that the next 15 years are going to be very bad unless the Fed pulls off a miracle on reeling back in the enormous money printing.

However, usually the Fed reacts to a crisis by printing/lowering rates, keeping rates too low too long, fueling another bubble, belatedly moving in the opposite direction, which helps trigger the bursting of the bubble, creating a crisis, to which it reacts by . . . [repeat loop indefinitely].  This has at least been the recent history:
1997-1998:  Asian financial crisis, Russian financial crisis, and resultant collapse of Long Term Capital Management prompts Fed to provide a large amount of liquidity and keep interest rates lower than they otherwise probably should have been.  That money finds a home in the Nasdaq, helping (along with other factors) to inflate an enormous bubble there.  Fed sees this and belatedly starts creeping up interest rates, which helps to burst the bubble.
2000:  Nasdaq bubble bursts, causing the worst drawdown on a major US financial index since the Great Depression, causing havoc in the economy.  The Fed reacts by taking interest rates drastically lower and keeping them there for several years.  This (along with other important factors) helps create an enormous bubble in real estate and mortgage-backed securities.  The Fed sees this and keeps moving up interest rates, which helps to burst the bubble.
2007-2008:  Real estate and mortgage securities bubble bursts, causing a meltdown of our (and the world's economy), much worse than 2000 crash.  The Fed slams interest rates to zero, prints a new 1.4 trillion dollars, and the US government spends over $5 trillion on a bunch of stuff that had no long-term benefit to the economy.  The Fed keeps these rates at zero for the next *SIX YEARS* . . . and counting . . .

My feeling is I've seen the next step in this story several times before.  Maybe I'll be wrong this time -- Nobelist Paul Krugman and other Keynsians would say I'm wrong.  But I've got this horrible feeling that it's going to happen and be much worse than the 2008 crash.  I worry about this situation nearly every day.

Offline Thruster

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Re: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2014, 04:46:51 AM »
Yeah well....

First, the Fed doesn't print money. Not to reduce rates, inject liquidity, or simply to have some walking around zort. Money gets printed (BP&E) when the money supply requires. Look up "fractional reserve". It's become a metaphor for debt manipulation. Only peripherally related.

QE does put pressure on yields and provides incentive to spend elsewhere if R.O.C. is an issue. It also reduces cash reserves normally held for other exigencies which we hope can be avoided by the time tested strategy of faith and denial with a bit of shell game thrown in for plausibility's sake. Bottom line is the stock market has become the venue of choice for so many investment modalities that there's just not enough real equity to go around. A bit of slip is to be expected. 1 or 2% after a similar bullish session just indicates mild volatility. Which in itself can be a good thing depending on the "why's". And if you didn't question how it got to 17k+ in the first place you probably got no business worrying about yesterday.

Offline zack1234

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Re: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2014, 05:06:46 AM »
So brooke US is exporting oil again :)

What inpact is it going to have on the US and the DOW
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Re: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2014, 09:20:20 AM »
  If bad deflation happens, the best investment is cash. 

  I've been investing in Land, Cows, Chickens, Hogs, Seeds, Guns, and Ammunition.  Laugh it up suckers, laugh it up!  :banana:
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2014, 10:01:31 AM »
See Rules #4, #14
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 10:12:55 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Brooke

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Re: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2014, 11:01:46 AM »
Yeah well....

First, the Fed doesn't

I'm speaking colloquially for brevity, of course.  When I wrote my post, I briefly contemplated adding 2 or 3x the length to be technically correct on all of the Fed verbiage that, while obfuscatory to my explanation, would allow me to avoid a clever clogs response.

I (and the majority of the investment industry) very commonly use the phrase "Fed prints money" as shorthand for what the Fed does that ends up increasing monetary base.

And, yes, the Fed does what it does at times "to reduce rates, inject liquidity, or simply to have some walking around zort".
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 12:06:27 PM by Brooke »

Offline Brooke

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Re: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2014, 12:51:12 PM »
So brooke US is exporting oil again :)

What inpact is it going to have on the US and the DOW

The US exporting oil is good, but not good enough to alleviate my worry.  It would be even better if US companies were allowed to export more liquefied natural gas (since the US could do an enormous amount of that, helping the American economy and helping foreign consumers of LNG, too), but our government has been making that hard to do.

In my view, the US (and many other countries, too) has an enormous debt bubble of the size that, historically, has lead to severe problems.  My view on this is highly influenced by the research done by Reinhart and Rogoff in their book "This Time is Different."

Debt bubbles are resolved by default, high inflation (a form of default, really), or growth, or a combination of these.  Reinhart and Rogoff go through analyses of how likely it has been in history for nations to grow themselves out of debt bubbles -- it's not never, but depressingly uncommon.

Offline Brooke

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Re: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2014, 12:52:14 PM »
  I've been investing in Land, Cows, Chickens, Hogs, Seeds, Guns, and Ammunition.  Laugh it up suckers, laugh it up!  :banana:

Do you really have a farm?

Offline Maverick

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Re: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2014, 12:56:57 PM »
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 10:13:32 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline ridley1

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Re: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2014, 01:48:23 PM »
It seems that the market dips every october......liquify some assets to pay for the kids education..

The dow falls a couple of points off its record high....and the sky is falling.....

In 2 months... it'll be back up there.

If everybody is wondering why the economy still sucks, maybe you should ask the retards that all went over to china on trade missions. 

Offline CptTrips

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Re: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2014, 02:30:44 PM »
My opinion.

There is an enormous bubble in bond ....


Great post.  I've printed it out for further contemplation.

In my completely uneducated opinion...

 I believe the Fed wants some inflation.  It seems to me that the Fed has a much better toolset for managing inflationary pressures rather than deflation.  I think they are concerned about inflation, but I think deflation scares the Hell out of them.
I think they want to transform the equation so they can convert a deflationary problem into an inflationary problem, and then they can use their more refined set of tools to manage the inflation.

That, and a little inflation would help to burn off some off the remaining consumer debt.

I personally would prefer to see inflation rather than deflation (within reason ;)).

As far as the currency being made worthless...I just don't see any place better that money is going to go.  Whose currency would be the better investment?  China?  I just don't see it.  Even in the height of spending our way out of the crash, we couldn't print bonds fast enough.  Where else is that money going to go?  We don't have to be a perfect bet.  We just have to be better than the alternatives.

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Offline XxDaSTaRxx

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Re: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2014, 02:46:53 PM »
Think of what The Great Depression led to....

If it happens again....

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Offline 68ZooM

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Re: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2014, 06:06:37 PM »
lol the billionaire investors have been propping up the Dow for years its over inflated and needs to go back down, you can only prop it up for so long.
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Offline icepac

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Re: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2014, 07:03:31 PM »
I apologize.......It was collateral damage from one of my hype to pump and dump schemes.

Offline RotBaron

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Re: DOW minus 329 points-another recession ?!
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2014, 08:36:10 PM »
Soros  :O

 :uhoh

  :bolt:
They're casting their bait over there, see?