CV's and thier usefullness/uselessness as it is now.

[whels]

Originally posted by Buzzbait:
S!

Reason #1 CV`s get sunk easily is that the bozo who is commanding them maneuvers them to within Visual distance of enemy bases.  Any TF commander who did that in RL would get his butt busted to Boston so fast he`d be yanked out of his gaunche.

Even in the closing days of the Pacific War, when the Japanese Air force wasn`t a real threat, Halsey didn`t take TF58 in close to the Japanese Home islands.

Half the time I come into the MA and find a TF plotted to head right inshore to an enemy target, and there are ZERO friendlies manning it.

Same thing with enemy CV`s.  I came across one the other day, headed for a friendly base, no CAP at all.  I was able to put up 3 Tiffie missions, and sink both the CV and Cruiser with absolutely no hindrance from aircraft.  Only lost 1 Tiffie to flak, and that was more due to my own bad flying.

Reason #2 is that the guy who sends them in close, then doesn`t make sure there is CAP over them protecting against suicide Jabos.

If you are going to go into harms way, then you have to take pracautions.  If you use the CV`s offensively, then make sure you have 3-6 other players operating out of the CV.  Ideally you have one continuous CAP over the TF, a guy manning AA and maneuvering it, and 4 guys doing the strikes at the target. These last can be converted into CAP if you get a big threat.

The fact is, history tells us Capital ships are very vulnerable to aircraft.  If you accept that as a given, and take steps to counter threats, then you don`t have a problem.

I think the CV`s should be pretty much as they are.  

What I would like to see is the reduction in accuracy of the level bombers against fleet or other targets.  No way in the world in RL were level bombers as accurate as they are in AH.

You should have to kill a ship with a dive bomber or torpedo plane, the way it was in RL.

-

[whels]

Originally posted by Buzzbait:
S!

Reason #1 CV`s get sunk easily is that the bozo who is commanding them maneuvers them to within Visual distance of enemy bases.  Any TF commander who did that in RL would get his butt busted to Boston so fast he`d be yanked out of his gaunche.

Even in the closing days of the Pacific War, when the Japanese Air force wasn`t a real threat, Halsey didn`t take TF58 in close to the Japanese Home islands.

Half the time I come into the MA and find a TF plotted to head right inshore to an enemy target, and there are ZERO friendlies manning it.

Same thing with enemy CV`s.  I came across one the other day, headed for a friendly base, no CAP at all.  I was able to put up 3 Tiffie missions, and sink both the CV and Cruiser with absolutely no hindrance from aircraft.  Only lost 1 Tiffie to flak, and that was more due to my own bad flying.

Reason #2 is that the guy who sends them in close, then doesn`t make sure there is CAP over them protecting against suicide Jabos.

If you are going to go into harms way, then you have to take pracautions.  If you use the CV`s offensively, then make sure you have 3-6 other players operating out of the CV.  Ideally you have one continuous CAP over the TF, a guy manning AA and maneuvering it, and 4 guys doing the strikes at the target. These last can be converted into CAP if you get a big threat.

The fact is, history tells us Capital ships are very vulnerable to aircraft.  If you accept that as a given, and take steps to counter threats, then you don`t have a problem.

I think the CV`s should be pretty much as they are.  

What I would like to see is the reduction in accuracy of the level bombers against fleet or other targets.  No way in the world in RL were level bombers as accurate as they are in AH.

You should have to kill a ship with a dive bomber or torpedo plane, the way it was in RL.

-------------

mmm well if u dont sail CV close to shore u cant launch LVTs to take the base.  so reason for #1 is its required for LVT launch
to enemy base.  and keeping it off shore a distance wont save it because of # 2.

uless u got 5+ planes capping at diff alts
ranging from 10 to 30k u wont stop lone fighters. ask Osage, last night i was jsut below his alt in my p38, he in 190. i shallow
dove and beat him to th CV with him still 1.6 off my 6. turning  a CV wont save it either. i can hit 1 in hvy fighter or level buff while CV turns.

whels

[Tumor]

I'm "sorta" with ya Whels.  The damage needed to sink a CV should be made just tough enough that 2 fully loaded 47D's can't sink it, and that measure would only be to stop the suicide dweebs.  

 I'm definately with buzz on this though.  The number one reason CV's die so quickly is because when you drive a CV up next to an enemy base...they die lol, guess what...thats real life too.  On a couple occasions, I attempted to command a CV with respect to common/tactical sense and got called every name in the book and eventually someone took command of the CV (getting lots of "finally's and "good now we can fite" comments, and promptly gets it killed.  Nobody called that guy and idiot so...go figure, must be the nature of our company here at AH.

Tumor

[brady]

Somthing must be done about CV's that is for shure as Whels stats they are too easy to kill, making theam take more boms is a good idea.

 The sucide jabo atack drives me crazy their is virtualy no defense aganst it, heck U might as well have bakas at the shore bases to launch aganst theam( u must pay for theam off course)

 I think any single plane that aproaches the fleat should be schreaded by ack at any height. This would requier strikes of multiple AC to bring it down, as in real life.

 The shore batrie thing drives me made to the idots who bring it in close to shore and make no atempt to knock out the SB or keep it outside of it's covered ark make me lose it from time to time.

 I do howeaver think the SB must stay in the game.

[Hooligan]

According to "Striking Power of Airborne Weapons", US Naval Intelligence, pub. July 1944 it should typically take about 3-6 1000 AP bomb hits to sink a US CV.  However, even one hit might disable aircraft operations.

Perhaps taskforces should start with more than one CV (how about 4?) and these should respawn at the current TF location rapidly so that it will take a dedicated effort to get rid of the taskforce.

I love the battles that develop in the vicinity of both friendly and enemy CVs.  I hope that something is done so that CV taskforces don't disapear so easily.

Hooligan

[bowser]

"...They (the upper naval brass) still wouldn't believe him though. After he was de-moted in rank, he retired, went on to write several books about it, and his minions took up the cause in the 30's, thankfully, just in time for WW2...".

A couple of nights ago the movie about Billy Mitchell starring Gary Cooper was shown up here.  A very interesting story, though I'm not sure how historically accurate the movie was in every detail.  In the movie, a test was conducted to see if airplanes could destroy a large ship.  The rules were rigged by the old boys who didn't want Mitchell to succeed, they ordered him to bomb from 5k.  Mitchell, knowing he had to succeed if an airforce was to become a reality, came in at 1k and blew the ship to bits.  For this act, he was demoted.  Later, after what remained of the airforce was in disrepair, he went to the press in an attempt to force change.  For this he was court-martialled.  Another interesting fact...Mitchell predicted Pearl Harbour, describing who, where and how.  Apparently a man before his time.

"...Mitchell's tests were shamefully cheated. The fact that he was right on his vision doesnt deny that he cheated...".

Again, I don't know how accurate the movie was but...He was given orders by people who wanted his mission to fail, old-school navy people who wanted nothing to do with these "new fangled flying machines".  With all sorts of press and politicians present who might support his vision of an airforce, Mitchell knew he had to succeed.  Knowing it would cost him his career, he "cheated".  Not for personal gain, but so that the idea of an airforce would be supported.

If anybody has access to more historically accurate accounts, I'd like to hear them...interesting stuff.

bowser

[ 10-24-2001: Message edited by: bowser ]

[janjan]

Is it too hard to add automatic evasive manouvers for task force?

It should be easy to check if there are enemy aircrafts in the vicinity and the task force would start makeing randon zig zagging. The randomness is very important since people figure out the pattern too fast...

[Voss]

I agree, even though this is just a re-voicing of the same issues I made over a month ago.

The reason the CV's are close to shore is by the very nature of this game. YOu have to be in close to launch the LVT's. If you had the ships further out, until the SB's, and hangars, and VH, and acks were all dead, then moved the ships in; well everything would be resupplied by the time you got in range.

CAP does not work in this game for the same reason that a CV doesn't work well. All it takes is one suicidal plane to dive through the CAP and their mission is over. That's also why goons get so many perks; the survival rate isn't much to talk about.

I think the 88's should be more accurate. Not too much more, as we see what happens when they do connect, but more accurate just the same. I think the CV should be able to sustain more damage as well. I think twenty-six eggs is way too much, though. Maybe eight one-thousand pounders would be better.

The real problem, as I see it, is people don't really understand the strategy as HT and Pyro have designed it. Once they do I think the CV will be more useful, but getting support from your countrymen will never change. The CV requires a significant number of participants to be useful, particularly with the new strategy in place.

I have always hated the suicidal P47's, P51's, P38's, and thus my sig...

[rector]

As I see it one of the main things missing in making CV's/task forces viable is dedicated naval squadrons. I love flying USN and doing carrier ops. There is not one USN historical based squad in AH. Until there is all CV ops will remain haphazard. When there are such squads....."some" but certainly not most CV ops will get organized as they should.

Rector

[Westy MOL]

It's as if you read my mind Rector.    In AW or WB's there are, or were, several squads who fly only naval/marine aircraft (for example Hellcats, Zekes or Corsairs, Vals, TBM's etc etc) but no one does that in AH.

Yet.

 Westy

[DrDea]

"...They (the upper naval brass) still wouldn't believe him though. After he was de-moted in rank, he retired, went on to write several books about it, and his minions took up the cause in the 30's, thankfully, just in time for WW2...".

  One James Doolittle took the ball and ran with it.
  I believe the CV's also are to easy to nuke.I have on several ocasions taken a Hog with 2000 lb and 8 sticks and sunk it alone.I am also one of the Suicide dweebs if it saves a base.Moving the CV further out only allows me to gain more alt.The more than 2 P47s can cary idea is a good one.Make it harder even if only by increasing the leathality of the ack.I rarely survive a CV strike but it doesnt matter after the CV is gone.I think ack is the answer.When 1 plane can survive a straight in attack its off.

[skernsk]

Originally posted by R4M:
Mitchell's tests were shamefully cheated. The fact that he was right on his vision doesnt deny that he cheated.

I disagree.  The top brass wanted to stick it to Mitchell and made him sue smaller bombs and attck at a higher than normal altitude.

Mitchell decided to go against orders to PROVE that the ship could be sunk.  

I don't believe it was "shamefully cheating".