180 Turn (inverted)

[Slade]

Hello,

What is the proper term for a maneuver that consists of a 180 degree turn inverted (toward the ground)?

More clearly:
1. Plane in level flight parallel toward the ground.
2. Plane inverts, i.e. is upside down.
3. Plane pulls back on stick making a 180 degree to ending up back in level flight going the opposite direction.

Thanks,

Slade  

[mechanic]

Split S you mean?




wow, that was a big image

[Slade]

Yes - thanks Mechanic!  

[mechanic]

anytime man

[DEECONX]

I've had this maneuver pulled on me many times and they successfully escape, however whenever I seem to do it, All I end up doing is busting my E and loosing Alt and still having someone stick to me like a tick on a mule. 

So my question is, what scenario is this best used in and the best execution of this to lose someone.

[FLS]

The split S turn is used to gain speed at the expense of altitude.  If you lose too much speed you are likely creating too much drag by turning too hard.

[DmonSlyr]

I've had this maneuver pulled on me many times and they successfully escape, however whenever I seem to do it, All I end up doing is busting my E and loosing Alt and still having someone stick to me like a tick on a mule.  

So my question is, what scenario is this best used in and the best execution of this to lose someone.

The key is for the plane attacking you to follow in the turn. While doing this, they will be pulling Gs and blacking out as they are trying to pull for a shot. With timing, as they are approaching the bottom of the splitS, you pull up verticle, they will try to pull vert too which will enhance their black out. While pulling up vert you do a barrel roll defense (cut throttle and do a high barrel roll) as they are blacking out which can give you lead on a shot during the roll around. It is a very tricky maneuver. Look at my "loaded roll defense maneuver" in the training forum and all though I do not do a split S, I do a nose down turn, which allows for the same effect generally. I'll say that the nose down turn allows for an easier setup, but also gives your apponent a less difficult shot initially.

[Skyyr]

The split S turn is used to gain speed at the expense of altitude.  If you lose too much speed you are likely creating too much drag by turning too hard.

It can also be used defensively, to cause an opponent to gain more airspeed than is optimal and overshoot.

[FLS]

It can also be used defensively, to cause an opponent to gain more airspeed than is optimal and overshoot.

That's correct Skyyr. You can be defensive and offensive.

[Puma44]

The key is for the plane attacking you to follow in the turn. While doing this, they will be pulling Gs and blacking out as they are trying to pull for a shot. With timing, as they are approaching the bottom of the splitS, you pull up verticle, they will try to pull vert too which will enhance their black out. While pulling up vert you do a barrel roll defense (cut throttle and do a high barrel roll) as they are blacking out which can give you lead on a shot during the roll around. It is a very tricky maneuver. Look at my "loaded roll defense maneuver" in the training forum and all though I do not do a split S, I do a nose down turn, which allows for the same effect generally. I'll say that the nose down turn allows for an easier setup, but also gives your apponent a less difficult shot initially.

What are you going to do when they don't pull too much G, don't black out, effectively use their lift vector/turn radius and follow you through and maintain relative position on you?  How can you tell from your cockpit that the pilot behind you is blacked out?

[DmonSlyr]

What are you going to do when they don't pull too much G, don't black out, effectively use their lift vector/turn radius and follow you through and maintain relative position on you?  How can you tell from your cockpit that the pilot behind you is blacked out?

Well it would depend on how sharply you can peform the maneuver, their planes (to an extent), and how high you are. At high alts if I were to do this in a p47 vs a spitfire, I'd attempt to dive down further to hopefully extend away and attempt a BRD at a faster speed that I know they will black out and I can maybe pull out a shot.  

If the enemy plane is semi equal to my turn abilities even if he does slow down, the guy in front dictates the fight, so the plane behind reacts a second slower,  he will be planning that my plane is going to go up. In that since he still will not have a visual because he will be leading for a shot. I can point my nose back down and rudder turn in a direction he cannot see under his nose. Then I can force a scissors while he is searching for me. Or you do everything you can to stay under their nose and hope for the overshoot and try to work the position into BRD. The better turning the plane my enemy has, the harder I perform the maneuver, judging on their initial speed and whether they are cutting throttle or not.

I just have a feel for when I know a plane is gonna black out from Gs. I highly use these evasives to my advantage flying defensively in the MA. And it happens so quickly that many MAers don't ever see it coming.

At low alts, you can even get a plane to auger doing this move but it is risky and can cause you to wing over in the ground as well. It is a great maneuver to escape those pesky BnZers and to set up defensive traps.

[Puma44]

Well it would depend on how sharply you can peform the maneuver, their planes (to an extent), and how high you are. At high alts if I were to do this in a p47 vs a spitfire, I'd attempt to dive down further to hopefully extend away and attempt a BRD at a faster speed that I know they will black out and I can maybe pull out a shot.  

If the enemy plane is semi equal to my turn abilities even if he does slow down, the guy in front dictates the fight, so the plane behind reacts a second slower,  he will be planning that my plane is going to go up. In that since he still will not have a visual because he will be leading for a shot. I can point my nose back down and rudder turn in a direction he cannot see under his nose. Then I can force a scissors while he is searching for me. Or you do everything you can to stay under their nose and hope for the overshoot and try to work the position into BRD. The better turning the plane my enemy has, the harder I perform the maneuver, judging on their initial speed and whether they are cutting throttle or not.

I just have a feel for when I know a plane is gonna black out from Gs. I highly use these evasives to my advantage flying defensively in the MA. And it happens so quickly that many MAers don't ever see it coming.

At low alts, you can even get a plane to auger doing this move but it is risky and can cause you to wing over in the ground as well. It is a great maneuver to escape those pesky BnZers and to set up defensive traps.

Saying you know they will black out doesn't necessarily make it so.  Your explanation doesn't explain how you determine what the opponent's G load is at any given point, and that he is blacked out.

[mechanic]

I think with the insane amount of experience some of us acquire it is safe to say it is possible to be partially accurate at judging an opponents G-load. Not every time certainly, but very plausible a thing to predict.

For a rookie? Might not be something advisable to rely on judging until many more hours under the belt.

[DmonSlyr]

Saying you know they will black out doesn't necessarily make it so.  Your explanation doesn't explain how you determine what the opponent's G load is at any given point, and that he is blacked out.

As batfink said, it is nearly from experience, feel, prediction, and understanding how each aircraft gains speed in a dive and how well they can pull up. If I'm in a turn blacking out, the guy following me usually will too, in order to attempt to get a lead, or keep my in their sights, then it comes down to timing and roll technique.

In no black out situations I vert/turn as sharply as I can and attempt to de-Energy my opponent by using angles in which they will over compensate for a shot, but this is extremely difficult to explain.

Also it is much better to do the split S when they are closer! From a distance of >1000 or greater they could get a shot before even rolling over to follow.

[BaldEagl]

The split S is particularly valuable in a poor turning or highly wing loaded plane (like the 190 or 110 for instance) where a flat or climbing reverse might put you in a lowered E state that may be difficult to recover from.  It allows you to maintain speed during the reverse by trading alt for speed.

In better turning/climbing planes already at speed (like a Spit for instance) it's less effective as you may have to cut throttle to maintain your turn performance.  In this case a flat or climbing reverse is likely a better choice.

As to what happens after the reverse there's no one size fits all answer.  Each encounter is fluid and dynamic but it's useful to know what each maneuver is designed for.