Author Topic: The Force Awakens  (Read 1933 times)

Offline eagl

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Re: The Force Awakens
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2014, 08:41:20 PM »
I think star wars fans need to sit down in a few therapy sessions with start trek fans, to figure out some coping techniques useful when faced with divergent storylines.  "Canon" is something the owners/writers of the actual show owns, period.  Everything else seems to be sorted into categories of vaguely defined levels of plausibility.  That way nobody gets bent when authorized but non-canon works deviate from canon, and it lets the owners/writers have a free hand in defining what is "real" and what isn't.  Plus it ensures that the only time a reset happens is when the content owner says it does, usually not too often in order to protect the value of the IP.

Seriously, have you SEEN how badly star trek has scattered all over the place?  Yet star trek fans seem able to cope with it through multiple TV series, more numerous movies, and even a handful reasonably "official" books, that have to stand firm in the face of thousands of unofficial works.  Star wars fans seem terrified by the thought that Han Solo's boots might have the wrong number of buckles when he clearly had to get a new pair of boots in some random EU book written by who gives a flying flip.  If you can't see it on TV or in a movie theater, it isn't Canon.  Get over it.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: The Force Awakens
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2014, 09:07:04 PM »
If you can't see it on TV or in a movie theater, it isn't Canon.  Get over it.

The problem isn't helped by Lucas himself. First he stated an order of priority: (Films > Film Novelizations > Film Radio Dramas > Officially-licensed EU Novels/Comics > Official everything else [games, cartoons, TV specials -- yes, even the Holiday Special falls under this one] > Unlicensed works). Then he said that only the films are canon and nothing else matters (partly supported by the fact that the Prequels already outright contradict the EU in MANY ways). IIRC, yet ANOTHER time he said that EVERYTHING officially licensed is equally canon. So even George keeps changing his mind, which is even FURTHER confused by his insistence that ONLY whatever current version of the Special Editions we happen to be on at any given time is the "official" version of the Original Trilogy (so much for his belief in the preservation of films as they were originally made).
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Offline eagl

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Re: The Force Awakens
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2014, 10:34:05 PM »
Not sure anything Lucas has done with regards to Star Wars marketing has made any sense.  I personally think the guy is a nutjob.  I remember him flipping his @#%^ whenever someone dared suggest that he release the original trilogy on DVD... then the next 3 came out and he pocketed a bajillion bucks in toy sales, then went on a nationwide unending rant about how everyone was stealing his stuff and keeping him from making any money.

The guy is a loon.  You'd think he'd at least glance in the direction of highly respected people in the industry (Spielberg, Tom Hanks, etc) and do what they do instead of ranting himself into a solid spot on the Hollywood nutter hall of fame list, but then again there are a lot of other rich one-hit-wonders just like him with big empty heads, so maybe we shouldn't be surprised.  If he had any common sense maybe he'd have more than one title to his credit.  If you're gonna be a one hit wonder then I suppose Star Wars is the one to go with, but he sure has gone out of his way to foul up the title while complaining that he isn't making enough money due to haxxor thieves stealing his ones and zeros...

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Offline Saxman

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Re: The Force Awakens
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2014, 11:15:31 PM »
Here's the problem with Lucas:

Quote
My name is George Lucas. I am a writer, director, and producer of motion pictures and Chairman of the Board of Lucasfilm Ltd., a multi-faceted entertainment corporation.

I am not here today as a writer-director, or as a producer, or as the chairman of a corporation. I've come as a citizen of what I believe to be a great society that is in need of a moral anchor to help define and protect its intellectual and cultural heritage. It is not being protected.

The destruction of our film heritage, which is the focus of concern today, is only the tip of the iceberg. American law does not protect our painters, sculptors, recording artists, authors, or filmmakers from having their lifework distorted, and their reputation ruined. If something is not done now to clearly state the moral rights of artists, current and future technologies will alter, mutilate, and destroy for future generations the subtle human truths and highest human feeling that talented individuals within our society have created.

A copyright is held in trust by its owner until it ultimately reverts to public domain. American works of art belong to the American public; they are part of our cultural history.

People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians, and if the laws of the United States continue to condone this behavior, history will surely classify us as a barbaric society. The preservation of our cultural heritage may not seem to be as politically sensitive an issue as "when life begins" or "when it should be appropriately terminated," but it is important because it goes to the heart of what sets mankind apart. Creative expression is at the core of our humanness. Art is a distinctly human endeavor. We must have respect for it if we are to have any respect for the human race.

These current defacements are just the beginning. Today, engineers with their computers can add color to black-and-white movies, change the soundtrack, speed up the pace, and add or subtract material to the philosophical tastes of the copyright holder. Tommorrow, more advanced technology will be able to replace actors with "fresher faces," or alter dialogue and change the movement of the actor's lips to match. It will soon be possible to create a new "original" negative with whatever changes or alterations the copyright holder of the moment desires. The copyright holders, so far, have not been completely diligent in preserving the original negatives of films they control. In order to reconstruct old negatives, many archivists have had to go to Eastern bloc countries where American films have been better preserved.

In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be "replaced" by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.

There is nothing to stop American films, records, books, and paintings from being sold to a foreign entity or egotistical gangsters and having them change our cultural heritage to suit their personal taste.

I accuse the companies and groups, who say that American law is sufficient, of misleading the Congress and the People for their own economic self-interest.

I accuse the corporations, who oppose the moral rights of the artist, of being dishonest and insensitive to American cultural heritage and of being interested only in their quarterly bottom line, and not in the long-term interest of the Nation.

The public's interest is ultimately dominant over all other interests. And the proof of that is that even a copyright law only permits the creators and their estate a limited amount of time to enjoy the economic fruits of that work.

There are those who say American law is sufficient. That's an outrage! It's not sufficient! If it were sufficient, why would I be here? Why would John Houston have been so studiously ignored when he protested the colorization of "The Maltese Falcon?" Why are films cut up and butchered?

Attention should be paid to this question of our soul, and not simply to accounting procedures. Attention should be paid to the interest of those who are yet unborn, who should be able to see this generation as it saw itself, and the past generation as it saw itself.

I hope you have the courage to lead America in acknowledging the importance of American art to the human race, and accord the proper protection for the creators of that art--as it is accorded them in much of the rest of the world communities.

And then not even ten years later he started doing THE EXACT THING HE ARGUED IT WAS IMPORTANT TO PROTECT AGAINST. Nowhere in this speech did he leave a caveat about, "Oh, but if the creator wants to do it..." He states in no uncertain terms that films should be protected AS THEY WERE ORIGINALLY RELEASED.

Now, I can possibly see an exception to an extent for director's cuts which make use of footage that was already present, but the point stands. ESPECIALLY because director's cuts seldom, if ever, completely replace the original film as Lucas has tried to do with the Special Editions. Most fans view the Lord of the Rings: Extended Editions as superior to the theatrical cuts, but it doesn't REPLACE them. The Director's Cut of Kingdom of Heaven is DEFINITELY superior to the theatrical cut, but you'll find both versions next to each other on the shelves. The last release of Blade Runner included EVERY VERSION OF THE FILM EVER. And more recently, Days of Future Past will be releasing an Extended Cut this spring that restores Rogue's subplot, which was excised from the theatrical cut for time and pacing, but it won't displace the theatrical cut, either.

That's a pretty big difference.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 11:20:24 PM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline eagl

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Re: The Force Awakens
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2014, 12:01:42 AM »
Hopefully whenever Lucas dies, the person or entity that ends up with the property rights will authorize a re-release like they did with Blade Runner.

Of course, that means that even fans who *like* Lucas will be eagerly awaiting his death if that's the only way to get the original release on BluRay.
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Offline SEraider

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Re: The Force Awakens
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2014, 12:26:14 PM »
I have mixed feelings about SW 7 8 9.

I think there is nothing wrong with a story finishing, ending once and for all.

As much as I would be curious about where the story goes, its like, will we be watching the equivalent of:
Missing in Action 3+
Rocky 3+
Police academies 2+

At least Harry Potter ended and ended for good.  It went as far to make the ending - obvious.

Episode 6 should be the end. 

Do you guys want to see a James Bond type of franchise here?  I'd rather not.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: The Force Awakens
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2014, 12:42:13 PM »
I have mixed feelings about SW 7 8 9.

I think there is nothing wrong with a story finishing, ending once and for all.

As much as I would be curious about where the story goes, its like, will we be watching the equivalent of:
Missing in Action 3+
Rocky 3+
Police academies 2+

At least Harry Potter ended and ended for good.  It went as far to make the ending - obvious.

Episode 6 should be the end. 

Do you guys want to see a James Bond type of franchise here?  I'd rather not.


That's the thing, Return of the Jedi was very much a definitive ending for the franchise. It would be like Tolkien's attempt to continue after the Lord of the Rings (which he junked precisely because there was no where left for it to go).
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Serenity

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Re: The Force Awakens
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2014, 03:00:35 PM »
The Thrawn Trilogy (Heir to the Empire / Dark Force Rising / The Last Command) is THE best Star Wars story since The Empire Strikes Back. Timothy Zahn absolutely NAILED it. Hell, his hints about the Clone Wars were FAR and away better than what Lucas came up with. He even got to name the Republic/Imperial capital (the very first MENTION of Coruscant was in Heir to the Empire).

The X-Wing series was actually very well-done, with lots of fun Easter Eggs (@#$%ing Redemption Mission...) and did a wonderful job fleshing out secondary film characters like Wedge, Tycho, Hobbie and Jansen. There was a heightened sense of danger because you weren't dealing with any major characters so you there was a genuine possibility of characters dying (but without overdoing it, unlike SOME writers *cough*Martin*cough*), and Stackpole (who's an easy #2 on the list of best Star Wars writers) worked very closely with Zahn, which is why their respective books mesh together so well, and actually FEEL like they're part of one universe, while most of the rest of the EU authors just did whatever the hell they wanted, which helped greatly contribute to the very disjointed feel of the EU. (Stackpole's I, Jedi and Zahn's Hand of Thrawn Duology even work together as a pseudo-trilogy).

And Allston's books in the series were HILARIOUS. The Ewok Pilot running gag especially had me in stitches, but it was also the Wraiths' general insanity. Also, Jansen, full stop.

You're speaking my exact feelings here.

I think also worth mentioning though are the Han Solo trilogy. I don't recall the author, and cannot find the books (I lost quite a few in the last move :( ) but they were very interesting and provide great backstory that lines up all the way up to the opening scene of episode IV.

Offline Skuzzy

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Re: The Force Awakens
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2014, 03:33:44 PM »
Hopefully whenever Lucas dies, the person or entity that ends up with the property rights will authorize a re-release like they did with Blade Runner.

Of course, that means that even fans who *like* Lucas will be eagerly awaiting his death if that's the only way to get the original release on BluRay.

Lucas no longer owns the rights to anything related to "Star Wars".  He sold it to Disney, in its entirety.  Disney can do whatever they want without having to call Lucas for anything.

There is a rumor circulating Disney might be looking to release the original theatrical releases of the movies on DVD/BluRay as part of the marketing for the new movie next year.  I hope it is true.
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Offline Wiley

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Re: The Force Awakens
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2014, 03:57:12 PM »
There is a rumor circulating Disney might be looking to release the original theatrical releases of the movies on DVD/BluRay as part of the marketing for the new movie next year.  I hope it is true.

That would be a pretty good idea, hope they do it too.

My only exposure to anything beyond the movies has been the games (X-wing, tie fighter, etc) so I'm maybe not quite as jaded as some when it comes to the franchise.  I'd kind of like to see them do something good just to wash the taste of the prequels away.

Competent writers and direction might make something worth watching.

Wiley.
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: The Force Awakens
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2014, 04:28:56 PM »
That would be a pretty good idea, hope they do it too.

My only exposure to anything beyond the movies has been the games (X-wing, tie fighter, etc) so I'm maybe not quite as jaded as some when it comes to the franchise.  I'd kind of like to see them do something good just to wash the taste of the prequels away.

Competent writers and direction might make something worth watching.

Wiley.

I do too.  I have the 1985 Laserdisc releases, which, I am told, come as close as it gets to the original theatrical releases.  I copied them over to DVD, years ago.  I would like to see Disney restore the original releases and issue them. 
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Offline Saxman

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Re: The Force Awakens
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2014, 05:00:08 PM »
Lucas no longer owns the rights to anything related to "Star Wars".  He sold it to Disney, in its entirety.  Disney can do whatever they want without having to call Lucas for anything.

There is a rumor circulating Disney might be looking to release the original theatrical releases of the movies on DVD/BluRay as part of the marketing for the new movie next year.  I hope it is true.

Yes and no. Fox holds the rights to the original film from now until the end of time. In 2020 the rights to ESB and RotJ revert back to LucasFilm, which I assume means they would now go to Disney (unless the LucasFilm sale gives Fox some legal loophole to play with). Disney CAN NOT TOUCH the Original Trilogy without cutting a deal with Fox. Considering they're ALSO in a slap-fight with Fox over the X-Men films, that's incredibly unlikely to happen.

As I said, you might try the Despecialized editions (Google it, I don't think you'd like me posting the link) which are WELL worth the download, but that's the closest we're likely to get to a true HD release of the unaltered trilogy as long as the temperature in Hell remains above the freezing point.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Skuzzy

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Re: The Force Awakens
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2014, 05:05:09 PM »
I did not know about the Fox deal.  Well, then that truly sucks.  I'll keep the Dolbized DVD versions I made a few years back then.
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Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Re: The Force Awakens
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2014, 12:45:06 AM »
When the core contributors to a product are no longer present, then the product is no longer fundamental to its core.

But that can be said about anything.

Edit: What im saying is, the actors are all there. have faith this star wars will be the best yet.


« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 12:46:56 AM by BaDkaRmA158Th »
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Offline glzsqd

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Re: The Force Awakens
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2014, 02:46:12 AM »
Recently me and my family sat down and watched the 3 originals back to back and I have to say, Return of the Jedi is a lot worse than I remember. Most of the plot and setting is Recycled from the first film. No one, with the exception of Ian McDiarmid, gives a very good performance. I don't like ragging on Return of the Jedi, but I genuinely feel that this new movie has a shot at being better.


What I find interesting is where the Saga was initially envisioned to go. From what I've been told there was supposed to be either 2 or 3 movies after Empire Strikes Back where Luke turns to the Dark side(presumably killing Vader in the process), Luke's Sister is introduced as a new Character, and She is eventually brings him back to the light side. I do know for a fact that Harrison Ford was very much "bored" with his role as Han Solo and thought it would be best to kill off his character.
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