Author Topic: Time to Neuter the 109s  (Read 10100 times)

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Time to Neuter the 109s
« Reply #75 on: December 24, 2014, 10:04:47 AM »
Some actual pilot observations...


"Yes, pilots did like them (slats), since it allowed them better positions in dogfights along with using the flaps. These slats would also deploy slightly when the a/c was reaching stall at higher altitudes showing the pilot how close they were to stalling.....this was also useful when you were drunk "
 - Franz Stigler, German fighter ace. 28 victories. Interview of Franz Stigler.

"Pilots verbatim impressions of some features are of interest. For example, the DB 601 engine came in for much favourable comment from the viewpoint of response to throttle and insusceptability to sudden negative 'g'; while the throttle arrangements were described as 'marvellously simple, there being just one lever with no gate or over-ride to worry about'. Suprisingly though, the manual operation of flaps and tail setting were also liked; 'they are easy to operate, and being manual are not likely to go wrong'; juxtaposition of the flap and tail actuating wheels in an excellent feature."
 - RAF Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) Farnborough handling trials,Bf.109E Wn: 1304.  M.B. Morgan and R. Smelt of the RAE, 1944.

"It is important to bear in mind that minimum radii of turn are obtained by going as near to the stall as possible. In this respect the Bf.109E scores by its excellent control near the stall and innocuous behaviour at the stall, giving the pilot confidence to get the last ounce out of his airplanes turning performance."
 - RAF Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) Farnborough handling trials,Bf.109E Wn: 1304.  M.B. Morgan and R. Smelt of the RAE, 1944.

"I was amazed at how docile the aircraft was and how difficult it was to depart, particularly from manoeuvre - in a level turn there was lots of warning from a wide buffet margin and the aircraft would not depart unless it was out of balance. Once departted the aircraft was recovered easily by centralizing the controls."
 - Charlie Brown, RAF Flying Instructor, test flight of restored Me 109 E-4 WN 3579. Source: Warbirds Journal issue 50.

"- How the Messerschmitt reacted to hard pull? Did she stall? There is the general opinion that you could not make her stall by pulling but she could 'slip'."
 - Kyösti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.

"The most delightful features of the Messerschmitt were, first, in spite of its remarkably sensitive reaction to the controls, the ship showed no disposition to wander or "yaw" as we call it; neither was there any tendency to "hunt". It was a ship where the touch of a pianist would be right in keeping with the fineness of the response. And, likewise, I am sure that any ham-handed pilot who handled the controls in brutal fashion would soon be made to feel ashamed of himself.
 Seldom do we find a single-seater that does not stiffen up on the controls as the ship is pushed to and beyond its top speed.
 In about cruising speed, a movement of the control stick brought just exactly the reaction to be expected. And at high speed, wide open, the control sensitivity checked most satisfactorily.
 Then I wanted one more check and that was at the bottom of the dive where the speed would be in excess of that ship's straightaway performance. So down we went about 2,000 feet with the air speed indicator amusing itself by adding a lot of big numbers - to a little over 400 mph. A gentle draw back on the control effected recovery from the dive; then up the other side of the hill."
 - US Marine Corps major Al Williams.

"As CL max is reached the leading edge slats deploy - together if the ball is in the middle, slightly asymmetrically if you have any slip on. The aircraft delights in being pulled into hard manuevering turns at these slower speeds. As the slats pop out you feel a slight "notching" on the stick and you can pull more until the whole airframe is buffeting quite hard. A little more and you will drop a wing, but you have to be crass to do it unintentionally."
 - Mark Hanna of the Old Flying Machine Company flying the OFMC Messerschmitt Bf 109 G (Spanish version).
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Offline Sombra

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Re: Time to Neuter the 109s
« Reply #76 on: December 24, 2014, 10:29:37 AM »
Go to the youtube video. Click on the little cogwheel and set speed to 2x. There, I increased the realism of the video for you.  :D


I think maybe AH should up its realism if it wants to separate from Warthunder and the like. It's not only flight model and damage model that counts. Little details like different ergonomics of flap operation count too in combat.

I understand HTC is reluctant to bring in features that "overcomplicate" things for their costumers. One way to do that without alienating the average costumer could be to implement an "increased realism standard" that you could adhere to with no advantage in its use.  Then we could discuss if it could show up in scores as a "prestige badge". For example "playerA killed* playerB": the asterisk means that playerA killed, but at the same time:

-Took the trouble of managing yet more levers (radiators, blower stages...).*
-Didn't use ammo counters.**
-Risked flap damage by "disabling" auto flap retract function. ***
...


You may ask: Who would want to do without ammo counters with no advantage in return? Answer: Realism enthusiasts that are willing to pay 15$/m. to the game that offers their realism fix :)

P.S. I don't care much for "switchology" at startup, for example, but this game is lacking in things that have can have an influence in combat, as I  said (the subject of this thread)


* If he wasn't flying a plane equipped with kommandogerät.
** Except if his plane had ammo counters, like in german planes.
*** This doesn't apply to F6F, for example. Am I right? :)
...
^^^Attention to detail can make a difference.

Offline SirNuke

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Re: Time to Neuter the 109s
« Reply #77 on: December 24, 2014, 10:53:40 AM »
good thread, that's the AH I like  :rock

Offline Slade

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Re: Time to Neuter the 109s
« Reply #78 on: December 24, 2014, 11:24:32 AM »
-1

The other 99.999% of us guys flying 109s fly as mere mortals.
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Offline Stampf

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Re: Time to Neuter the 109s
« Reply #79 on: December 24, 2014, 12:10:20 PM »
good thread, that's the AH I like  :rock

Me too.  Absolute comedy gold from the cheap seats.

 :rofl

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Time to Neuter the 109s
« Reply #80 on: December 24, 2014, 12:23:22 PM »
I "Chalenge" any one of you to build a cockpit and prove that it is possible to fly combat and use flaps like you do in AH. Put your money where you mouth is.

These pilots in real life used the flaps in combat just like how the flaps are used in AH.

Combat report of 4th FG pilot Willard Millikan in his combat report of April 22,1944, flying a P51B:
"The Hun kept up his attack and turned steeply to come in on my number 4's tail, so I pushed everything forward and dropped flaps to turn inside him.  Through the early stages of the turn he outturned me, but I pulled up and corkscrewed inside him and laid off a deflection shot which hit him hard enough to cause him to flick out of his turn.  He started to split-ess but my shots forced him to turn back the other way.  Immediately I managed to get a few strikes and he began to skid and slow up and prepare to bale out.  I was closing very rapidly so I dropped full flaps and throttled back completely....."

Quoting Lt. Robert Blandin
"The 109 was in front of me now and still in a pretty steep climb.   I had him in range and was firing.  I could see my tracers looping behind his tail but I didn't have enough speed to pull the lead I needed to  hit him.  To get it, I cracked some combat flaps which gave me added lift and let me bring the nose up without stalling.  The next time I fired I hit him aft of the cockpit...."

“I was leading Yellow flight and we had completed our mission and were returning home at 3000 feet.  We had lost our flight leader in clouds and haze after an identification pass at friendly A/C.  We had just gone on instruments and were about to enter the overcast when we were bounced from 4 O’Clock by four Me 109s which had just broken out of the overcast.  Yellow 2 called for me to break right into the E/A.  The entire flight broke and I found myself after a half-turn of a Lufberry, turning inside the lead E/A.  I fired a four second burst from 200 yards at approximately 20 degrees deflection and observed strikes on the engine.  The E/A started to smoke and leveled off.  I fell into trail behind him and fired a 6-second burst at 0 Degrees deflection and again observed strikes, this time on the fuselage and right wing root.  Fire broke out and enveloped the entire right wing root as the E/A disappeared into cloud.  I did not follow him because I was low on fuel.  The other E/A disappeared into the clouds after the initial break.  We all used our maneuver flaps and had no difficulty in out turning the E/A.  I saw no one bail out from the plane I hit and in my opinion the pilot was hit and at least wounded on my first burst because he leveled off and flew at a very slight climb.”


Captain Paul Sabo, 370th FG  July 31, 1944
“I was leading Blue Flight circling the target area giving Red Flight Top Cover as they were dive bombing the target.  Circling above us at about 12,000 feet were 12 Me 109s.  I kept watching them; then 8 of them half rolled and got behind my flight.  I gave the order to jettison our bombs and break. I dropped flaps and started in a tight Lufberry.  When I had completed one turn I was alone, and at that time I saw an Me 109 in a vertical turn coming in front of me so I started firing at him at a 90 degree deflection shot.  He flew right into the pattern and I saw strikes on him from nose to tail.  The plane seemed to shudder and slow down.  I was about 200 yards when I started to fire.  The Me 109 then made a 90 degree turn to the left and started to climb as if he was going to loop.  I followed him, closing to about 100 yards, fired and saw strikes all over his canopy, fuselage and tail surfaces.  As he was about at the top of his loop and almost on his back, I saw what looked like his canopy come off, as the plane seemed to hang there.  It looked like I had wounded the pilot during the first 90 degree deflection shot and he was rolling it over on his back to jettison his canopy and bail out.

About that time I looked in my rear view mirror and saw an Me 109 on my tail. I dropped flaps and turned into him.  He half rolled and went down.  As I rolled out I saw an Me 109 coming down in front of me.  I opened up again and gave him a 90-degree deflection shot.    He ran into my pattern and I saw strikes all over the plane.  I followed him and kept firing from directly behind him, seeing strikes on his tail surfaces.  Then he proceeded to go down in a wild dive from about 5000 feet.  I looked back in my mirror again, because all during this time I was still alone.  My flight had left me.  I saw another Me 109 coming in on my tail. I dropped flaps, leveled out and turned into him.  He automatically went into a steep climb and I lost him in the sun.  When I looked I saw no more enemy and called my Flight to join me.”

Lt. Royal Madden (P-38 pilot) 370th FG, July 31, 1944
“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.

We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.

Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”

ack-ack



« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 01:45:51 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline Tilt

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Re: Time to Neuter the 109s
« Reply #81 on: December 24, 2014, 01:46:37 PM »
that person has to get it past a committee of people with their feet stuck in the mud.

What "committee" is this?............. Are you referring to HT & Pyro?
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Offline colmbo

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Re: Time to Neuter the 109s
« Reply #82 on: December 24, 2014, 02:55:21 PM »
These pilots in real life used the flaps in combat just like how the flaps are used in AH.



I think he was talking about the ergonomics of using the flaps.  It would be a bit more challenging if we had to roll a wheel or reach down beside our seat and move a lever to use the flaps instead of just tapping a button on our HOTAS system.
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Offline 715

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Re: Time to Neuter the 109s
« Reply #83 on: December 24, 2014, 03:17:54 PM »
I thought he was talking about the speed of actuation of the flaps, which the video clearly shows is much slower than AH models.  But apparently that is a false and blasphemous video that bears false witness to the greatness that is the 109.

Offline FLS

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Re: Time to Neuter the 109s
« Reply #84 on: December 24, 2014, 03:41:10 PM »
I thought he was talking about the speed of actuation of the flaps, which the video clearly shows is much slower than AH models.  But apparently that is a false and blasphemous video that bears false witness to the greatness that is the 109.

You think that was the fastest that guy could turn it? His purpose was to clearly show the number of turns for full deflection so you could count them.
You could model that with a key tap for every partial turn he makes but that still doesn't answer the question of how fast a typical 109 pilot got the flaps out.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 03:43:36 PM by FLS »

Offline darkzking

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Re: Time to Neuter the 109s
« Reply #85 on: December 24, 2014, 03:45:49 PM »
p39 is terribly modeled i demand a fix  :devil
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Offline Randy1

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Re: Time to Neuter the 109s
« Reply #86 on: December 24, 2014, 04:32:14 PM »
if no one finds a 109 ww2 pilot saying how well the flaps worked it is a bit daming.

There is one noted P38 pilot quote describing the problem of the throttle being on one side and thr flap lever on the other.

Offline pipz

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Re: Time to Neuter the 109s
« Reply #87 on: December 24, 2014, 04:35:32 PM »
p39 is terribly modeled i demand a fix  :devil

How dare you!  :old:
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Time to Neuter the 109s
« Reply #88 on: December 24, 2014, 05:50:08 PM »
if no one finds a 109 ww2 pilot saying how well the flaps worked it is a bit daming.

There is one noted P38 pilot quote describing the problem of the throttle being on one side and thr flap lever on the other.


Again... and in bold for your convenience.

"Yes, pilots did like them (slats), since it allowed them better positions in dogfights along with using the flaps. These slats would also deploy slightly when the a/c was reaching stall at higher altitudes showing the pilot how close they were to stalling.....this was also useful when you were drunk "
 - Franz Stigler, German fighter ace. 28 victories. Interview of Franz Stigler.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Time to Neuter the 109s
« Reply #89 on: December 25, 2014, 12:33:12 AM »
All of those accounts are obvious bologna, predator. 109s are over modeled. End of discussion.
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