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Author Topic: FW 190A critical mach?  (Read 6182 times)

Offline Brooke

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FW 190A critical mach?
« on: January 16, 2015, 01:50:47 AM »
Does anyone have reference for critical mach for the FW 190A?

The FW 190A-5 in AH has a critical mach of about 0.80 by testing.

Looking around, all I can find is reference to it being 0.75 (from testing done by Eric Brown) for the FW 190:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Brown_%28pilot%29#Wartime_service

The P-38 according to Brown has a critical mach of 0.68, which is what it is in AH by testing.
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Offline save

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2015, 04:37:36 AM »
It could also differ some version vs version, A6-A8, F8 had a different wing vs the A5, 30mm version had bulges all over the wings :)

Currently it is its only advantage it still has against some late allied fighters, it is even faster diver than a full set of diving and shooting B17s, that can do close to 600mph  :rolleyes:

It can easily be out turned by any allied fighter and many fully loaded bombers at slow speed  :confused:.

 
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Offline -ammo-

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2015, 04:49:08 AM »
Quote from: save on January 16, 2015, 04:37:36 AM
It could also differ some version vs version, A6-A8, F8 had a different wing vs the A5, 30mm version had bulges all over the wings :)

Currently it is its only advantage it still has against some late allied fighters, it is even faster diver than a full set of diving and shooting B17s, that can do close to 600mph  :rolleyes:

It can easily be out turned by any allied fighter and many fully loaded bombers at slow speed  :confused:.

 

Regardless Save, and I do sympathize, but if it is modeled incorrectly, consideration should be given to updating its FM :salute
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Offline save

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2015, 04:52:23 AM »
here is an older thread about the p47 vs 190A critical mach
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=204256.0
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Offline Mike Williams

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2015, 07:39:21 AM »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2015, 07:45:51 AM »
According to Eric Brown the Fw 190 and Bf 109 both had tactical Mach numbers at or near .75. Tactical Mach being the speed at which the aircraft is still capable of useful maneuvering. Critical or limiting Mach would be higher than the tactical and is the speed at which you lose control.

A very interesting video of a lecture by Eric Brown was posted here some time ago. I'll see if I can find it.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 07:50:30 AM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2015, 10:26:22 AM »
Can't find it. Search really suxxors on this site.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2015, 12:01:27 PM »
Quote from: PR3D4TOR on January 16, 2015, 07:45:51 AM
According to Eric Brown the Fw 190 and Bf 109 both had tactical Mach numbers at or near .75. Tactical Mach being the speed at which the aircraft is still capable of useful maneuvering. Critical or limiting Mach would be higher than the tactical and is the speed at which you lose control.

A very interesting video of a lecture by Eric Brown was posted here some time ago. I'll see if I can find it.

This is a good point.  The reference I gave says "tactical Mach" not "critical Mach".  It's the tactical Mach of the 190 that is 0.75.  However, it is also tactical Mach of the P-38 that is 0.68 according to that reference.

In AH, the tactical Mach of the P-38 is about 0.64, and critical Mach of 0.68.

EDIT:  No, I have the nomenclature wrong -- see post below.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 01:06:28 PM by Brooke »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2015, 12:23:11 PM »
It tucks under at .68?
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2015, 12:51:59 PM »
"Mach tuck would occur when the aircraft attained Mach 0.68; the air flow over the wing roots would become transonic, and the wing therefore would lose lift..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_tuck

It's wiki, but still.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2015, 12:52:13 PM »
Looking more carefully at nomenclature, "critical Mach" should be where shock waves just start.  Critical Mach is not where the controls lock up -- that would be past critical Mach.  The Brown reference uses "tactical Mach" to mean the speed at which you can still maneuver the aircraft but faster than that you can't.  In that case, tactical Mach should be greater than critical Mach.

Here is a diagram:

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Offline FLS

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2015, 01:00:50 PM »
The tests Brown mentioned were a P-51B and a P-38H. Brown defined tactical Mach as the max safe handling speed.
Capt Brown also tested an F5E with dive flaps and was able to pull out from Mach .71 without the dive flaps and Mach .75 with dive flaps.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 01:03:01 PM by FLS »
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Offline Brooke

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2015, 01:02:16 PM »
Quote from: PR3D4TOR on January 16, 2015, 12:23:11 PM
It tucks under at .68?

There is a net full of sloppy nomenclature and references on this, a result of the difference between the start of stock waves and when you can't control the aircraft anymore.  It might be that some references are using Mcritical as Mtactical for the P-38, as it is the most-studied WWII fighter for compressibility, and so there is more potential for references to get the details all messed up.

If they are all judged on when they can't be maneuvered well anymore, supposedly Brown did that, and found the P-38 to be Mtactical = 0.68 and FW 190 Mtactical to be 0.75.

In AH, Mtactical for the P-38 is 0.68 at most (it gets nearly impossible to maneuver it lower than that -- more like 0.65), and Mtactical for the FW 190 is 0.80 (or a little bit less, like 0.79).
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Offline Brooke

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2015, 01:04:45 PM »
Quote from: FLS on January 16, 2015, 01:00:50 PM
The tests Brown mentioned were a P-51B and a P-38H. Brown defined tactical Mach as the max safe handling speed.
Capt Brown also tested an F5E with dive flaps and was able to pull out from Mach .71 without the dive flaps and Mach .75 with dive flaps.

Do you know where I can get that data?  Is it in a book or reference somewhere?
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2015, 01:14:00 PM »
Brown doesn't use the term "critical mach". He uses "tactical mach" the highest speed where you can still fight with the aircraft, and "limiting mach" where you can't fight and will lose control if you go faster.
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