Author Topic: FW 190A critical mach?  (Read 6176 times)

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2015, 11:22:17 AM »
Brooke, it varies with different aircraft, but as a general rule both the tactical and limiting Mach speeds are below critical Mach. This was certainly true with the 109 because of the heavy stick forces at high speed. The P-38 was a special bird because of all the interference drag and Bernoulli effects created by the central pod and nacelles interacting with the airflow. Brown defines tactical Mach as the speed at which you can fight the aircraft and limiting Mach as the speed where you no longer can, and if you go past the limiting Mach speed you'll get into serious trouble.

The RAE extensively tested both the Typhoon and Tempest and they too had both tactical and limiting Mach speeds well below critical Mach. I quote from Brown's book Testing for Combat:

"Our other great interest in the Tempest V at the RAE was in its high Mach number characteristics, and these proved to be very similar to those of the Typhoon, except that it had limiting Mach number of 0.81 true and a critical Mach number of 0.83 true. At the latter speed the nose-down trim change was very strong, and a full-blooded pull was required to keep the dive angle constant until the altitude had fallen to about 15,000 ft, when recovery could be affected."

"We had found out that the Bf 109 and the Fw 190 could fight up to a Mach of 0.75, three-quarters the speed of sound. We checked the Lightning and it couldn't fly in combat faster than 0.68. So it was useless. We told Doolittle that all it was good for was photo-reconnaissance and had to be withdrawn from escort duties. And the funny thing is that the Americans had great difficulty understanding this because the Lightning had the two top aces in the Far East."

There, from the man himself.

The difference between the 109 and P-38 is that in the case of the 38 the tactical Mach speed is limited by compressibility effects, while for the 109 it is the heavy controls that limit its ability to fight above Mach .75. It doesn't get into compressibility until .80 or thereabouts.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 11:28:17 AM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline FLS

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2015, 11:45:32 AM »
In "Wings on My Sleeve" Brown defines critical mach as loss of control. I had posted that earlier but couldn't find it in "Wings of the Weird and Wonderful" so I edited it. Helps if I look in the right book.  :bhead  For the F5E or P-38L that would be .72 mach without using the dive flaps and .75 with dive flaps.

All the other references I've seen to critical mach refer to the minimum speed where some airflow becomes supersonic.

Offline Brooke

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2015, 02:40:23 PM »
Brooke,

...

There, from the man himself.

I stand corrected on Brown's terminology.  :aok

Also, thank you for another reference (the book "Testing for Combat").

Offline Brooke

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2015, 02:43:53 PM »
Brooke I notice one graph is labeled "One definition of critical mach number."    :lol

My USN Aerodynamics book defines critical mach as the "free stream Mach number which produces first evidence of sonic flow."
This is what your first illustration shows. Supersonic flow occurs after the critical mach number.   :aok

Yes, the two definitions in my view are the same:  the critical point at which any part of the wing goes from no supersonic flow to any supersonic flow, such that at speed Mcr-epsilon there is no sonic flow and at Mcr+epsilon there is.  That is where drag will start to diverge.

However, it is (at least for most wings) not yet the point where there are large shock waves, drastic drag divergence, loss of lift, etc.

Offline Brooke

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2015, 02:58:52 PM »
I'm having no luck finding any definitive data on these things anywhere but in Brown's book (or books).

Other than Brown's books, I can't find any online references except ones that say something like "critical Mach of the P-38 was 0.68" without any backup of where that comes from or what *they* specifically mean by "critical mach" (i.e., the transition from subsonic to some sonic, or where maneuverability is starting to be lost, or where there is absolutely no control, or anything in between).  Or references that say "we dove this airplane to such and such a speed", which means almost nothing in this context.

Offline FLS

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2015, 03:50:34 PM »
Have you seen this Brooke? It's wind tunnel model testing of dive flaps but it shows some mach numbers.

P-38 Dive Tests

Offline Brooke

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Re: FW 190A critical mach?
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2015, 01:03:30 AM »
Have you seen this Brooke? It's wind tunnel model testing of dive flaps but it shows some mach numbers.

P-38 Dive Tests

No -- thanks for the link.