Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery

[deSelys]

Thread necro justified by this new impressive video by the same danish guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

 

[MrRiplEy[H]]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g

Most impressive!

Lars Andersen, a danish archer, is rediscovering the ancient techniques of the masters of archery.

Mythbusters couldn't split an arrow even when they set up a machine to launch the arrow exactly dead center. Makes you wonder...

[-ammo-]

Mythbusters couldn't split an arrow even when they set up a machine to launch the arrow exactly dead center. Makes you wonder...

Mythbusters need to invite Anderson to the show....

[mechanic]

I've split an arrow with a field point and compound bow at 30yrds, it's pretty common with a modern compound bow target shooting.


I think this guy is impressive to a point. However his bow is too weak and easy to use, his wild jumping around antics serve no purpose other than theatrical entertainment and his methods would be seriously tested under the pressure of a cavalry charge beating down on him. He seems to think that a planned jump in a gym onto a crash mat proves he could fire arrows while falling of a horse? Not a chance that this is the same situation.

I'm not putting the guy down, his skills are interesting and the speed is impressive, but there are no practical situations where this style would be of use. Well, perhaps one situation, if he was being attack by soft skinned women in the nude armed with feather dusters.

Give me a yeoman archer firing 100-160lbs of longbow loosing 12 heavy ash shafts fletched with goose feather and tipped with 5 inches of bodkin a minute any day over this circus archery with a toy bow and plastic arrows.

[-ammo-]

I've split an arrow with a field point and compound bow at 30yrds, it's pretty common with a modern compound bow target shooting.


I think this guy is impressive to a point. However his bow is too weak and easy to use, his wild jumping around antics serve no purpose other than theatrical entertainment and his methods would be seriously tested under the pressure of a cavalry charge beating down on him. He seems to think that a planned jump in a gym onto a crash mat proves he could fire arrows while falling of a horse? Not a chance that this is the same situation.

I'm not putting the guy down, his skills are interesting and the speed is impressive, but there are no practical situations where this style would be of use. Well, perhaps one situation, if he was being attack by soft skinned women in the nude armed with feather dusters.

Give me a yeoman archer firing 100-160lbs of longbow loosing 12 heavy ash shafts fletched with goose feather and tipped with 5 inches of bodkin a minute any day over this circus archery with a toy bow and plastic arrows.

Well yea, let him come into a combat situation against me with me in a foxhole armed with a SAW....

But that is not the point of Anderson.  He has studied, practiced, and recreated combat tactics of old that while not employable in today's combat situation, certainly helps us understand what "good" was back then.

[mechanic]

They would not have even been useful 600 years ago at Agincourt. They would not have even been useful 1000 years ago against a Viking raiding party. They probably would not have even been useful 4000 years ago against bronze clad Egyptians. Perhaps they would be useful for hunting, however it makes a lot more sense to fire one high power arrow straight through an unaware target than pepper it's hide with 10 weak arrows while it runs away after the first hit.

I admire his skill, let me repeat that. A fantastic archer of his kind. I'd like to meet the guy and shoot with him. It's very cool. But it is for entertainment only.

[Wiley]

I've split an arrow with a field point and compound bow at 30yrds, it's pretty common with a modern compound bow target shooting.

That's a parlor trick, nothing more.  An arrow is oscillating quite a bit in flight, that's not going to be a reliable shot.  Deflecting it, sure, but consistently splitting lengthwise isn't happening.  And hitting it is going to send parts heading in new and unpredictable directions.  Skillwise, up there with shooting an aspirin out of the air but as an actual thing one would do in a fight?  Not likely.

I think this guy is impressive to a point. However his bow is too weak and easy to use, his wild jumping around antics serve no purpose other than theatrical entertainment and his methods would be seriously tested under the pressure of a cavalry charge beating down on him. He seems to think that a planned jump in a gym onto a crash mat proves he could fire arrows while falling of a horse? Not a chance that this is the same situation.

Assuming you see the fall coming, the only material difference would be the sudden stop at the bottom.  What happens between the fall and the impact would be no different.

I'm not putting the guy down, his skills are interesting and the speed is impressive, but there are no practical situations where this style would be of use. Well, perhaps one situation, if he was being attack by soft skinned women in the nude armed with feather dusters.

Give me a yeoman archer firing 100-160lbs of longbow loosing 12 heavy ash shafts fletched with goose feather and tipped with 5 inches of bodkin a minute any day over this circus archery with a toy bow and plastic arrows.

I've been thinking about it a bit lately.  Not all combat involved armor that was particularly effective against arrows.  A guy that made it a way of life could probably get close to that level of proficiency with a 50 or 60 lb bow, and that would be plenty for a lot of non-metal armor.  The jumping around... whatever, but the shooting ability would be quite useful against non metal armored opponents.

Wiley.

[mechanic]

That's a parlor trick, nothing more.  An arrow is oscillating quite a bit in flight, that's not going to be a reliable shot.  Deflecting it, sure, but consistently splitting lengthwise isn't happening.  And hitting it is going to send parts heading in new and unpredictable directions.  Skillwise, up there with shooting an aspirin out of the air but as an actual thing one would do in a fight?  Not likely.

absolutely, I was only commenting because someone said mythbusters said it wasn't possible.

Assuming you see the fall coming, the only material difference would be the sudden stop at the bottom.  What happens between the fall and the impact would be no different.

I would expect that your only concern when falling off a horse is concentrating on not breaking your neck. But Perhaps you are right, I just can't see it.

I've been thinking about it a bit lately.  Not all combat involved armor that was particularly effective against arrows.  A guy that made it a way of life could probably get close to that level of proficiency with a 50 or 60 lb bow, and that would be plenty for a lot of non-metal armor.  The jumping around... whatever, but the shooting ability would be quite useful against non metal armored opponents.

Wiley.

With a fully drawn 60lb bow, absolutely, then it would start becoming more useful. A lot of the trick shots in the video are not even close to full draw.

Consider that with adrenalin flowing most of these trick shots would not have stopped the enemy quick enough before they were slicing the archer in half.

[morfiend]

I've been thinking about it a bit lately.  Not all combat involved armor that was particularly effective against arrows.  A guy that made it a way of life could probably get close to that level of proficiency with a 50 or 60 lb bow, and that would be plenty for a lot of non-metal armor.  The jumping around... whatever, but the shooting ability would be quite useful against non metal armored opponents.

Wiley.

 Actually I would dispute that!  Both the Japanese and Chinese found that simple silk could stop an arrow fired from any bow,then add in simple paper armour and the combatant was almost impervious to arrows fired at him.

   The paper armour was multiple layers and made of overlapping scales,like those of a "Dragon" and the silk was a simple cape that was fastened around the neck and attached to the waist or legs and would billow out like a parachute.This would catch and trap the arrow,I've seen it demonstrated and to my amazement it was quite effective!


  As for splitting an arrow,well I suppose it could be done but the grain of the wood used in the arrow would have to be  exceptionally straight or it would turn the striking arrow off to one side or the other.


  I do agree with Batty,while impressive I would rather a heavy longbow delivering and heavy arrow with an impressive bodkin,or sharpened spoon head.......


  Hopefully one of these days I'll get that string made for the bow I'm building. I need to till it down somewhat as it pulls over 70lbs at 22 inches and I can feel it flex in the handle area.Oh and I need to locate a few choice feathers to fletch my arrows.


   

[mechanic]

John! Send me a mailing address and I will send you a bundle of goose feathers, left or right wing up to you. You'd have to cut them up yourself but I imagine you would relish the task.


Sharpened spoons are the mutt's nuts  

here is a bow I have been working on today Morf, The flat spot on the lower limb needs steam bending, the stave was kinked in two places on that limb. The balance is perfect despite the apparent inequality. If I was to till the lower limb any further I would have to reduce the whole bow down by about 10#

This picture shows about 20-22" of draw with a weight of about 80#. When she is finished and sealed she will draw to the ear hopefully around 100#@28"

[Wiley]

 Actually I would dispute that!  Both the Japanese and Chinese found that simple silk could stop an arrow fired from any bow,then add in simple paper armour and the combatant was almost impervious to arrows fired at him.

   The paper armour was multiple layers and made of overlapping scales,like those of a "Dragon" and the silk was a simple cape that was fastened around the neck and attached to the waist or legs and would billow out like a parachute.This would catch and trap the arrow,I've seen it demonstrated and to my amazement it was quite effective!

Hmp!  By what I'd read, the silk was mostly there to aid in extraction.  Wonder what kind of tips they were using...

  As for splitting an arrow,well I suppose it could be done but the grain of the wood used in the arrow would have to be  exceptionally straight or it would turn the striking arrow off to one side or the other.

I was always under the impression straight grain was pretty much a necessity for consistency.  Also to have any imperfections pointing upward when the arrow goes forward so if it does happen to give, the break will go upward away from fleshy bleedy bits like your hand.

  I do agree with Batty,while impressive I would rather a heavy longbow delivering and heavy arrow with an impressive bodkin,or sharpened spoon head.......


  Hopefully one of these days I'll get that string made for the bow I'm building. I need to till it down somewhat as it pulls over 70lbs at 22 inches and I can feel it flex in the handle area.Oh and I need to locate a few choice feathers to fletch my arrows.


   

Hehe...  Not saying there aren't better options for pitched open warfare with full on armor, but it is not completely useless either.

What kind of string?

Wiley.

[morfiend]

 Thx for the offer Batty but in a couple months the Canada geese will be everywhere and going into molt so it's just a matter of dropping by the local park and picking a few up!

  She's got quite the kink! you could try dry heat bending it if you dont have a steamer and if you want drop my an email and I can help with building a cheap steamer for bows!

  Willey, I suppose it depends on what the arrow is made from,obviously modern built wooden arrows use straight grains but that wasnt always the case. Many homemade arrows start from flatstock wood so you may get some runoff grains. My main point was if all things were perfect I'm sure a highly skilled archer could split an arrow but as you said it would be like shooting a pill out of the sky!

  Yes I also read the silk"chute" was bright and had designs to make them targeted but that doesnt change the fact that it actually stopped and arrow. As for the point they had IIRC a normal field point on a wooden arrow as they used a real person on horseback to test the theory. The silk was able to trap the arrow and displace it's energy,how effective it was against multiple arrows is debatable but it was the first line of defense used with some type of armour,leather,paper, etc.

  As for type of string,I plan a flemish twist,I've tried a couple of the new fibers but I want to go with tried and true dacron. I have considered using other "natural" fibers but it seems too much trouble.



 BTW Batty,I'm in no hurry,it's the journey thats important not where you end up!