How to escape a rolling scissors

[darkzking]

How do i get out of a rolling scissors that i'm losing without the guy pulling up behind me D300-200?

[TequilaChaser]

You might should be asking, "Why am I losing ? or why have I lost this rolling scissors engagement?"

here is a link you might want to review  ( it is an AVI file, let it load completely, then watch it )

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/rollingscissors/rollingscissors.htm


I will try and find the thread, where Badboy posted this in the Help & Training forum

edit: ok, here is the link to the thread where Badboy posted the rolling scissors write-up & AVI

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,184939.new.html


TC

[JunkyII]

How do i get out of a rolling scissors that i'm losing without the guy pulling up behind me D300-200?

You can send it into Vertical Scissors by extending up and rolling over the opposite way but torque can make that a bade decision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab8exrBR6q4

KI84 is one of my favorite planes to duel with/against...watch from 1:23 just before the Kill shot I notice he is getting behind me so I started trying to gain more energy in order to do the vertical move(You can't see it but I wasn't going full flaps over the top anymore, trying to cut the drag)

(Understand this is 4 years ago, I had A LOT more practice back then and the dueling arena is where I ended up pretty much every night)

[ink]

split-S

Immelmann

oblique turn

all will get you out of them....

adding rudder....lots of rudder.....

maybe some opposite rudder and some Aileron ok lots of Aileron....


you know that pilot s$#t

[FLS]

How do i get out of a rolling scissors that i'm losing without the guy pulling up behind me D300-200?

The best time is when you are going down and the bandit is going up. No guarantee you'll get as much distance as you want.
Start with 0g and WEP for max acceleration.

[Scotch]

Because you've committed to a rolling scissor you've limited your options. The majority of the time you're going to be near the deck and probably relatively slow. The best, and obvious answer is to get better at rolling scissors so that you don't lose. Pretty much all duels between equal pilots will lead to a rolling scissors so it is an important, challenging, and fun, situation to practice. Sunsfan and I used to get into 10minute rolling scissor wrestling matches, often times running out of fuel before either one of us gained an advantage. It was very beneficial to my dueling and fighting.

If I've found that I'm drastically losing position in a rolling scissors, I'm not necessarily looking to extend and run, but just to reset the angles advantage. It's all situation dependent but I would probably try an off angle, zero-g dive from the top of my scissors and turn it into a quick flat scissors to barrel roll reversal, either getting off a kill shot, or reengaging a rolling scissors on more favorable footing. The MA environment is a little different because differences between the plane match up come into play. I fly the k4 a lot. It's likely that as I break out of the scissors I can out accelerate my opponent and then I CAN extend and equalize energy and position. I'll still be at risk of getting shot as I extend, so I'll be rolling and jinking until "safe".

The other option is to perform a "gamey tailslide" etc and hope you don't get popped or auger as they overshoot.  

[morfiend]

 Other than Scotch's last comment he make a good point!  You dont really want to try to extend because in a scissor fight you are too close and the bullets are much faster than any plane!

  Ideally you want to adjust the lift vector so it's behind the enemy and try to keep it there. Again this is likely best done at the top of the roll when you are slow,it will adjust your flight path so you can neutralize the positions and then you need force the enemy out front of you.

 This is best practiced, as Scotch said by getting into long running rolling scissors with a partner.Bighorn,Lengro,batfink and several others and I would do this in the TA until you augered,ran outta fuel or fell asleep!




   

[NikonGuy]

The point of a rolling scissor is to get behind your opponent correct

What a lot of flyers seem to forget, is that chopping your throttle is part of the manoeuvre.

If you want to get very good at acm, throttle management (GOOD throttle management) is a BIG part of it.

Many people out there that just push the throttle forward and leave it there

<S>

[Scotch]

Other than Scotch's last comment he make a good point! 

bah!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfOT6xjlTGs

  

[Randy1]

I forgot about a move I worked on for the P-38 after switching to the P-47 for awhile.  Start the scissors but if it doesn't take then at about the 3 or 9 clock position roll 180 degrees then pull, a flat, hard turn. Should work well on the P-39.  The higher speed of the red the better it works.

[DmonSlyr]

bah!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfOT6xjlTGs

  

Sickest kill ever!

[FLS]

The point of a rolling scissor is to get behind your opponent correct

What a lot of flyers seem to forget, is that chopping your throttle is part of the manoeuvre.

If you want to get very good at acm, throttle management (GOOD throttle management) is a BIG part of it.

Many people out there that just push the throttle forward and leave it there

<S>

Please explain how chopping throttle is required in a rolling scissors.

[darkzking]

Do i firewall and full wep during a rolling scissors?

[Wiley]

Please explain how chopping throttle is required in a rolling scissors.

In broad terms, to tighten up turns so you stay behind the bandit and keep away from the sharp end not giving him enough space to get around for a shot on you.  Is that wrong thinking?

Wiley.

[TequilaChaser]

chopping your throttle is a last ditch effort in my opinion, I have rarely ever chopped throttle in a rolling scissors! in a flat scissors I have and have done so regularly, but hardly ever have I in a rolling scissors... I want to keep all the E I can, so if I see myself losing on the 3-9 line advantage, I simply increase my arc until I have regained the advantage, although I seriously can not recall losing many rolling scissor fights....

I remember me and scotch in c202's in a fight over the runway, that lasted seemed like for ever, if I remember correctly I think one of use eventually augered, but the fight itself had several separate rolling scissors fights in it, each of us resetting it if one of us felt we were losing....

FLS gave the proper time when to exit a rolling scissors, and you simply need to rely on luck to not get hit while extending to try and reset the fight from a better advantage point

hope this helps   ( Scotch did you save any of those films from like 2 years or so back? they would be great for this discussion)

edit: however, I do agree that a player should familiarize themselves with proper throttle management practice, it is a much needed skill in this game

TC