Author Topic: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on  (Read 2403 times)

Offline mbailey

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2015, 06:54:25 PM »
In Japan the war industries  heavily relied upon by small shops making sub assemblies for their weapons of war. Many of these sub assemblies were made in family homes by civilians, making them military targets. Couple that with the bombing frightening the citizen population to evacuate the cities and away from their small (yet vital) manufacturing duties in their homes and war plants was a major factor in reducing the output of war making materials in Japan.

I don't think anyone condones the bombing of civilians, but sadly in that war many if not most were involved in making the weapons and supplies to allow a government that cared nothing about their well being to thrive. I'm sure if Germany or Japan had the ability our cities would have burned and they wod not have lost a minute of sleep over it. War was thrust upon the world by homocidal monsters and their delusions of greatness. Sadly something that has happened throughout human history. From the Assyrians, to the Romans, to the great feudal monarchy's of Europe and Asia.  We can sit back now years later and point fingers and Monday-morning quarterback decisions made during war, but we were not there making these decisions or having to live with the ramifications of loosing.

Just my .02 cents
Mbailey
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2015, 08:48:24 PM »
I don't think anyone condones the bombing of civilians


I'm sorry, I was away on another planet.  When I came back, everyone had forgotten that Billy Mitchell and Giulio Douhet advocated the annihilation of the civilian population by aerial bombardment in the 1920s, and that American strategic nuclear doctrine from the 1950s until....now...?...has targeted cities, rather than military sites, in the event of "nuclear combat toe-to-toe with the Russkies."

Someone had better call the President quickly, so he can get the targets changed.  We're in danger of being prosecuted as incipient war criminals otherwise.

- oldman

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2015, 10:15:58 PM »
"Legitimate target"

There is no legitimacy in the deliberate slaughter of civilians. No matter the politics, race, religion or the actions of the enemy. No matter the outcome of the war. Killing defenseless men, women and children is pure evil regardless of the rationale behind it. Regardless of how and where and why they are killed. Pure evil.

I would argue that stopping a war machine, in any way necessary, that was responsible for horrific crimes almost beyond imagining makes bombing them legitimate. Dresden was a major marshaling center for troop/materials transport, industry, and the technology for high accuracy bombing did not exist at the time.

I imagine if you were on the field of battle, or one of the ones left waiting for slaughter in a K-camp, you'd have some interest in the outcome of the war. You'd probably have interest just being alive at the time cause there was always the chance you'd end up as Soylent Green if one of the Master Races decided you were undesirable.

Oh and BTW "History" is a guy you meet when you get your nose out of computer games and into books. For decades the casualties of Dresden were inflated by far, by as much as 8 or 10 times what they actually were. The actual toll is in the area of 20,000 and perhaps if the Germans wouldnt have invented terror bombing of cities much of it wouldnt have happened. Twice that number of civilians died in the Warsaw bombings and shellings of 1939 and 1,000 innocents died when the Luftwaffe terror bombed Rotterdam in 1940. About 30,000 British during the Nazi Blitz including over 5,000 children.
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American strategic nuclear doctrine from the 1950s until....now...?...has targeted cities, rather than military sites, in the event of "nuclear combat toe-to-toe with the Russkies."

Nope your wrong. There are numerous war plans should things go that hot. The destruction of civilian targets is only one of them and would only happen if they targeted ours first.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 10:21:00 PM by Rich46yo »
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Offline Scherf

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2015, 10:56:07 PM »

I'm sorry, I was away on another planet.  When I came back, everyone had forgotten that Billy Mitchell and Giulio Douhet advocated the annihilation of the civilian population by aerial bombardment in the 1920s, and that American strategic nuclear doctrine from the 1950s until....now...?...has targeted cities, rather than military sites, in the event of "nuclear combat toe-to-toe with the Russkies."

Someone had better call the President quickly, so he can get the targets changed.  We're in danger of being prosecuted as incipient war criminals otherwise.

- oldman

 :rofl

^ wins thread
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2015, 01:15:55 AM »
Just very sad to see how arrogant and disrespectful people are. Just because the victims weren't Americans. No matter what the Nazi regime had done, fire bombing civilians a  few months before the war ended (everyone knew it was a matter of time) where an immoral act.

I will give u an example of how bad the arguments are: (an example, not my opinion) Al quaida were at war with US and the economic centres where legitimate targets so 9/11 where a justified act in a war. That not what u guys want to hear and very disrespectful to the victims but u are doing pretty much the same thing to the Germans.
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Offline Bruv119

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2015, 01:48:23 AM »
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Offline zack1234

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2015, 02:31:21 AM »
There was a case in the UK where a crimminal was killed by someone defending themselves from being attacked.

The crimminals family were outraged in court.

This is the same mind set of those who try you transfer the crimminality of the crimminal onto the victim.

The Germans were to blame for the retribution brought upon the Reich.

And the Allies are to blame for the forgiveness and help given to Germany to rebuild the Democratic Germany.

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Offline mbailey

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2015, 07:00:11 AM »

I'm sorry, I was away on another planet.  When I came back, everyone had forgotten that Billy Mitchell and Giulio Douhet advocated the annihilation of the civilian population by aerial bombardment in the 1920s, and that American strategic nuclear doctrine from the 1950s until....now...?...has targeted cities, rather than military sites, in the event of "nuclear combat toe-to-toe with the Russkies."

Someone had better call the President quickly, so he can get the targets changed.  We're in danger of being prosecuted as incipient war criminals otherwise.

- oldman

I think you misunderstood me, I was all for the bombing we did during WW2 and moving forward. Maybe condone was a wrong choice of words...... I personally think it was 100% nessasary and warranted. Do I like it, no.  Is / was it nessasary yes.

Not quite sure what your post means.
Mbailey
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2015, 09:15:30 AM »
I don't know if it is funny or sad to see so many people on one hand condemn the Nazis for terror bombing, and on the other hand defend how the Allied air forces behaved like Nazis. Hypocrisy at its finest. :confused:

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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2015, 09:38:15 AM »
I think you misunderstood me, I was all for the bombing we did during WW2 and moving forward. Maybe condone was a wrong choice of words...... I personally think it was 100% nessasary and warranted. Do I like it, no.  Is / was it nessasary yes.

Not quite sure what your post means.


It wasn't meant as a deep post; I simply wanted to point out that virtually the entire world has condoned the bombing of civilians since the 1920s-1930s.  As you say, no one likes it, but the logic behind it, seems to me, is sound enough.

- jkw

Offline glzsqd

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2015, 10:00:44 AM »
War is an awful thing... Arguing about the moralities of/in war is a mute point in my opinion.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2015, 10:04:50 AM »
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Just very sad to see how arrogant and disrespectful people are. Just because the victims weren't Americans. No matter what the Nazi regime had done, fire bombing civilians a  few months before the war ended (everyone knew it was a matter of time) where an immoral act.
Oh I think sending 9,000,000 men woman and kids into the showers kinda qualifies them for special treatment. Then again they started the war. They are the ones who declared war. From the beginning Hitler wanted his master race riding horse and crop over the lesser subhumans, "those he allowed to live and work for the Reich".

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I will give u an example of how bad the arguments are: (an example, not my opinion) Al quaida were at war with US and the economic centres where legitimate targets so 9/11 where a justified act in a war. That not what u guys want to hear and very disrespectful to the victims but u are doing pretty much the same thing to the Germans.

Your example blows. Were not legally at war with Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is not a country or an army. Its more of like a "Tony Soprano gets religion and wraps his head". They are not protected under INTL Law or conventions, yet even still we treat them far better then the Nazi's treated their "undesirables" or captured soldiers.

Dude you must have been out burning blunts during History class.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2015, 10:20:56 AM »
They are the ones who declared war.

Factually incorrect with the noted exception of the United States. France and the UK declared war on Germany. The RAF also started bombing German cities before the Luftwaffe did. The Ruhr valley and German port cities like Wilhelmshaven were bombed as early as late 1939.

German children did not send anyone into the showers.
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Offline caldera

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2015, 10:27:16 AM »
Factually incorrect with the noted exception of the United States. France and the UK declared war on Germany. The RAF also started bombing German cities before the Luftwaffe did. The Ruhr valley and German port cities like Wilhelmshaven were bombed as early as late 1939.

German children did not send anyone into the showers.

Poland doesn't count?
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2015, 10:40:17 AM »
As a French or British city? No. Warsaw was bombed relentlessly by the Luftwaffe because the city was a fortress. When the Polish troops entrenched there surrendered the city the bombardment stopped. Later Rotterdam was bombed when the German army approached and the city refused to surrender. Later when the German army approached Paris the French forces withdrew from the city and fought elsewhere and Paris was not bombed. None of these bombings represents strategic bombing. While the Luftwaffe bombings of these cities was indiscriminate they did not specifically target the civilian population. Unlike the later bombing of London the goal of bombing Warsaw and Rotterdam was not economic, strategic or just pure terror. It was to achieve a military goal; to defeat the military forces entrenched within those cities.

The civilian population was the specific and only target for saturation firebombing bombing of German cities by the Allied air forces.
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