Author Topic: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on  (Read 2231 times)

Offline zack1234

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2015, 12:29:41 PM »

What an insane question!

No it is not insane, are you American?
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2015, 12:44:58 PM »
What if I am? What's that got to do with anything?
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Offline SysError

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2015, 01:44:39 PM »
Why will they be talking about Dresden in 100 years time?
This is the reason for bombing of German cities:
They tried to terror bomb Britain by orders of Adolf Hitler.

Bomber Command bombed Berlin first.  Some say Bomber Harris did it to provoke Hitler to redirect the Luftwaffe from air fields to anything else.  Others say that it was an accident and that all that was hit on that first raid on Berlin was a garden shed. 

They put children in ovens

Churchill and cabinet approved the bombing of cities in Feb 1942.  At the Wannsee conference (Jan 1942) only the deportation process was agreed to.  How to carry out the exterminations was not settled.

My only point being that Churchill, who had once argued against the bombing of civilian targets, did not know about the ovens in Feb 1942 because they did not exist at that point in time.

Concentration camps were around since the Berlin Olympics, the Germans wanted to keep undesirables hidden and away and so they established a process that "confined without trial...[To]...A concentration camp, a place where people were detained or confined without trial.  Prisoners were kept in extremely harsh conditions and without any rights."  Concentration camps were not a secret, but I do not think that Churchill really cared about them at the time.

The Americans did not agree to the bombing of civilian targets until 1944 (Berlin), and even then people like Gen Doolittle tried to challenge the order.  (Up until then they would only go after military targets, and yes, if they were in cities, then and only then would they bomb the city.)

Allied command knew about the extermination camps in 1944, but even after repeated pleas, they chose to not target them.  The Allies could have put a stop to the efficiency of the Nazi extermination process and saved 100,000s of lives.



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Offline SysError

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #78 on: February 15, 2015, 01:47:49 PM »
We can discuss the effectiveness of bombing industrial targets to the end of time, and there are many opinions both for and against. That's why I said it was useless speculation. However, the deliberate killing of civilians and the wanton destruction of civilian property is another matter entirely. What effect it had on the war effort is not measurable and in any case it is immoral regardless of effect. A county that has to murder hundreds of thousands of civilians to win a war does not deserve to win. Murdering civilians to "shorten the war" is even more reprehensible. Only a sociopath would sacrifice a child to save a soldier.

Again  -- Well Stated.

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Offline Vulcan

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #79 on: February 15, 2015, 02:34:38 PM »
My only point being that Churchill, who had once argued against the bombing of civilian targets, did not know about the ovens in Feb 1942 because they did not exist at that point in time.

The germans were committing mass executions without the ovens. The ovens were in response to the stress and workload of having to machine gun down civilians.

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #80 on: February 15, 2015, 02:36:32 PM »
what everybody forgets, is us and them did what was right at the moment.  Germans followed hitler because they thought he was actually helping them, lots of people forget that there were many officers in the german army that tried to kill hitler because he was wrong.  same thing in Italy, and dont forget that japan when it surrender it had to send some of it's army to stop those who didnt want to surrender.

point is war is never right.  look at  us how we supported dictators south of our borders.  lots of people died there.

I have family that fought and died for germany when they didnt even speak german.  were born and raised in mexico, but they were called and they went because they thought it was their duty.  I also have family that fought with the us.  they didnt ask to go, they didnt start it, all they thought is that it was their duty to go.

yes, millions of innocent people died.  from Auschwitz to Dresden.  but we must learn from our mistakes.


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Offline Vulcan

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #81 on: February 15, 2015, 02:45:36 PM »
There were no extermination camps in Germany for exactly the reason of hiding it from the German people. Officially they were “deported to the East”. All the extermination camps were in the occupied lands in eastern Europe. Mostly Poland. It is shocking that you don't know this.

Dachau?

Bergen-Belsen?

Theresienstadt ?

Oh sure you say they weren't "extermination" camps but thousands died there.

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #82 on: February 15, 2015, 02:53:53 PM »
No ovens. No smoke. Not in Germany. Most Germans were oblivious to the Holocaust.
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Offline zack1234

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2015, 03:02:09 PM »
What if I am? What's that got to do with anything?

Was Bombing Japanese cities a war crime?

Never will a American admit this.

Are you American?
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Offline KgB

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #84 on: February 15, 2015, 03:05:32 PM »
No ovens. No smoke. Not in Germany. Most Germans were oblivious to the Holocaust.
They just didn't see "no jews allowed on side walks" signs and yellow stars on sub human shoulders.
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Offline SysError

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #85 on: February 15, 2015, 03:10:36 PM »
The germans were committing mass executions without the ovens. The ovens were in response to the stress and workload of having to machine gun down civilians.


I agree with you.  I was just replying to the "They put children in ovens" statement.

The mobile vans/trucks with exhaust pipes that feed back around into the cabins were their first attempts to be more efficient.

The camps made the process efficient and reduced the stress on the SS.  (yep the SS was as worried about the stress of it all on their troops.)  If they had bombed the camps the Germans would have had to go back to the mobile vans/machine guns and thousands would have been saved.

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Offline SysError

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #86 on: February 15, 2015, 03:14:10 PM »
what everybody forgets, is us and them did what was right at the moment.  Germans followed hitler because they thought he was actually helping them, lots of people forget that there were many officers in the german army that tried to kill hitler because he was wrong.  same thing in Italy, and dont forget that japan when it surrender it had to send some of it's army to stop those who didnt want to surrender.

point is war is never right.  look at  us how we supported dictators south of our borders.  lots of people died there.

I have family that fought and died for germany when they didnt even speak german.  were born and raised in mexico, but they were called and they went because they thought it was their duty.  I also have family that fought with the us.  they didnt ask to go, they didnt start it, all they thought is that it was their duty to go.

yes, millions of innocent people died.  from Auschwitz to Dresden.  but we must learn from our mistakes.

semp

Many, (but not all), of the Germans that I know believe that the bombing of civilian populations made the removal of Hitler thru a coup impossible.



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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #87 on: February 15, 2015, 03:19:30 PM »
Was Bombing Japanese cities a war crime?

No it was not a war crime. Nor was firebombing Germany. Deliberately targeting civilians became a war crime in 1949.

Both the bombing of Germany and Japan were evil atrocities regardless. And yes, so was the bombing of Warsaw, Rotterdam, London and a whole lot more. Never thought I would have to point out that the Nazis were evil.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #88 on: February 15, 2015, 03:36:50 PM »
No ovens. No smoke. Not in Germany. Most Germans were oblivious to the Holocaust.

It was the worst kept secret of the War. The correct statement should be "most Germans were oblivious to giving a shirt".
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #89 on: February 15, 2015, 04:30:10 PM »
Even Hitler's secretary didn't know. The secrecy was absolute, and brutally enforced by the Gestapo and SD.
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