Of course I don't have the film, but...

[Muzzy]

I got beat by an interesting move last night and I wanted to outline it. When dropping straight down on a con, he (Krupinski I believe, and later another player who's call sign I forgot) pulled straight up at me. The zoom climb only gave me the briefest of snapshots and after a couple of passes like this, the cons were able to neutralize my e advantage. I was flying a P47 D40 at the time.

1. How they did it: From what I understand they built up some speed in a shallow dive, waited for me to make my move and commit to the plunge, then pulled up in a zoom climb right past me. This exposed one of the weaknesses of the Jug: its inability to pull out of a dive quickly. It also allowed them to neutralize my e advantage.

2. How to beat it: this is where I'm puzzled. In the jug the only thing I could think of was to try and extend away and reset. The question though is what to do when you know your adversary is going to use this move on you. Any ideas on how to counter it?

[FLS]

Pulling out of a dive is not a weakness of the P-47. It's in the nature of turning that any speed above your corner speed will give you a larger radius turn. This is true for vertical turns as well as horizontal turns. Corner speed for aircraft not considered turn fighters in AH is generally around 260 MPH. If you want a quicker pull up you have to reduce your dive speed.

Your best counter is to not commit to diving past them. If you can bait them to go up and you pull up before you pass them you can keep your advantage. An experienced bandit will see that and reset just like you will see their move and reset. If you are committed then extend away and reset. Generally you lose an E advantage by reengaging too soon.

[Muzzy]

But if I pull up early, won't that take me across their nose? They usually pass in front of me, so if I pull up early, won't I give up a snapshot?

[-ammo-]

I got beat by an interesting move last night and I wanted to outline it. When dropping straight down on a con, he (Krupinski I believe, and later another player who's call sign I forgot) pulled straight up at me. The zoom climb only gave me the briefest of snapshots and after a couple of passes like this, the cons were able to neutralize my e advantage. I was flying a P47 D40 at the time.

1. How they did it: From what I understand they built up some speed in a shallow dive, waited for me to make my move and commit to the plunge, then pulled up in a zoom climb right past me. This exposed one of the weaknesses of the Jug: its inability to pull out of a dive quickly. It also allowed them to neutralize my e advantage.

2. How to beat it: this is where I'm puzzled. In the jug the only thing I could think of was to try and extend away and reset. The question though is what to do when you know your adversary is going to use this move on you. Any ideas on how to counter it?

The Jug recovers from a high speed dive really nice.  I'm curious - what AC was the bogey flying?  If he was in a energy monster like a LA7, K4, Spit-16, then his tactic is sound.  When the maneuvering starts, his AC will build spent energy quicker than you.  When you committed to your diving attack, he started chipping away at your energy advantage.


What I would do in your position is be patient.  From your attack position, without giving up your advantage, try to bait them up to you.  You want to present them with a hard nose up target.  If you want to attack in a situation like that, don't pull out your dive hard enough to black out.  Bank your energy.


In your situation, you need to make your shots count - and it isnt easy diving at that speed.


If you happen to get lucky and have a one on one with a dissimilar AC like the above mentioned (except the spit), don't hesitate to get slow behind the bogey and use your flaps and throttle to stay there and get your shot.  Beware  though, you will only have a couple of chances before he  gains an E advantage. 

[FLS]

But if I pull up early, won't that take me across their nose? They usually pass in front of me, so if I pull up early, won't I give up a snapshot?

That is a possibility you want to avoid. If you give them a shot it could mean you pulled up late, became too fast to be unpredictable, or were careless in your flight path. Staying inside their turn will deny them a shot.

If you can pull up early and they pull up for a shot you can spiral climb and watch them for signs of stalling, nose bobbles and/or wing drops, which is when you'd reverse for another attack. Remember bait only works when you appear to offer a shot opportunity and both sides can be hunting vs hunted.

[DmonSlyr]

I got beat by an interesting move last night and I wanted to outline it. When dropping straight down on a con, he (Krupinski I believe, and later another player who's call sign I forgot) pulled straight up at me. The zoom climb only gave me the briefest of snapshots and after a couple of passes like this, the cons were able to neutralize my e advantage. I was flying a P47 D40 at the time.

1. How they did it: From what I understand they built up some speed in a shallow dive, waited for me to make my move and commit to the plunge, then pulled up in a zoom climb right past me. This exposed one of the weaknesses of the Jug: its inability to pull out of a dive quickly. It also allowed them to neutralize my e advantage.

2. How to beat it: this is where I'm puzzled. In the jug the only thing I could think of was to try and extend away and reset. The question though is what to do when you know your adversary is going to use this move on you. Any ideas on how to counter it?

What you encountered was the advanced BRD that uses your momentum against you in order to gain a 6 spot on you or make you pull up and go around for another attempt ( which can be deadly if he has other friendlies around). So basically he is dictating the fight because he has a second of lead time ahead of you ( what he does first you will follow) so as you are diving on him, he has a tiny amount of E gained from going in a nose down turn. You follow him but are attempting to make a shot which causes you to black out or lose sight of him.  While that is happening, he is in the process of pulling up and over to perform a barrel roll Defense in attempt to get a quick snap shot, If you do not pull up fast enough or have the E to zoom away from him quickly, he will have a chance to reverse the fight to your disadvantage.

If you can pull up early and they pull up for a shot you can spiral climb and watch them for signs of stalling, nose bobbles and/or wing drops, which is when you'd reverse for another attack. Remember bait only works when you appear to offer a shot opportunity and both sides can be hunting vs hunted.

FLS explains that you need to pull up earlier instead of following him in the nose down turn. Following into the nose down turn in order to gain a shot could be deadly if you have much more E than him. So as he is going into the nose down turn, you can pull up and do a loop to keep the atl advantage and dive on him again, rinse and repeat until you can get a firm shot ( now this can be deadly to keep pulling around and diving on him if he has friendlies in the area who may be on the way to engage. Every time you pull up and around you are also losing valuable E, so you need to be careful that you do not follow into the nose down turn going too slow and then get reversed because you will not have the E to get away from the reversal. IE you better make the shot or be in a plane that can out roll them by chopping serious throttle and getting flaps out immediately.


Also as FLS described, if you do follow into the nose down turn with a lot of E and notice that the enemy is going to attempt this maneuver you need to either A. level out and zoom away with your E then when he is about 1.5k out start climbing again, or B. pull a split S immediately as you see the enemy start to pull vertical so that you are going in the opposite direction, the instincts of the enemy will either A. go straight realizing they dont have the E to follow you in the split S, or B. They will attempt to follow you in the split S thinking they have the E to climb with you. If they go for option B and attempt to follow you in the split S, they will lose a considerable amount of E. You were diving on them so you know you have more E than them already. Just the enemy pulls behind you (normally upside down trying to make an impossible shot) you pull up and do another Split S or spiral climb to get them to be completely stalled out. In this case, if they follow you and try to make that upside down shot, your split S or spiral climb will have much more E retainment and you can roll around on them on the second split S. Some pilots will not follow in the second split S so you just pull around and get back on their 6 where you started, but the E levels will be a lot different and you may be able to make shot with lower E states. Keep in mind, it is all about SA here, because if you pull the split S to the split S spiral Climb rope you will lose a considerable amount of E and be on the verge of stalling, if other planes are around they will be able to pick you easily. SO if other enemies are around and some are Co-alt or E you will want to simply attempt a quick shot and then zoom away so that you can use your speed to get away from the rest of the enemies around you.


It is timing, E reading, SA, and plane E/stall management that depicts whether you want to attempt the rope and continue to engage with your E or Zoom away and retry after you regain your Alt.


The reason why you becoming "co E" with them is because you either did no pull the split S hard enough and far enough to get them to stall out while following you, or you went around too many times without regaining the E your previously had. Plus if you cut throttle and try to follow them in the BRD you will lose tons of E thus allowing the enemy to follow you up after you over shoot,  or out roll you in the rolling scissors because he has control of the rolling scissors by being slower than you to begin with.


it takes some experience to know what to do in situations like this, whether you want to follow in the roll and then do a split S to rope/or keep in the rolling scissors, or pull up before following in the nose down turn and do a loop over them, or follow in the nose down turn but instantly pull up to a split S and then another splitS/SPiral climb for the rope. Lots of E reading and SA awareness for this type of engagement.

[FLS]

Violator let me correct a couple of things. The OP does not describe a barrel roll defense, he describes a shallow dive by the bandits to build E for a zoom climb. The BRD is a good way to slow forward motion and spoil a shot without losing too much speed but without film we have to go by the OP'S description.

The split S you describe sounds like an Immelmann. Both are half loops but the Immelmann goes up and the split S goes down.

[DmonSlyr]

Violator let me correct a couple of things. The OP does not describe a barrel roll defense, he describes a shallow dive by the bandits to build E for a zoom climb. The BRD is a good way to slow forward motion and spoil a shot without losing too much speed but without film we have to go by the OP'S description.

The split S you describe sounds like an Immelmann. Both are half loops but the Immelmann goes up and the split S goes down.

I thought a Split S could be vertical. I appreciate the correction. Most of what I mentioned was to perform the Immelmann in the verticle after an overshoot if the enemy comes close to matching your E from a nose down turn or nose down overshoot attempt in general.

[bozon]

Muzzy, if you are "dropping straight down" on the con you are doing it wrong. If you reach extreme speeds in the attack you are doing it double wrong.

The bandit was baiting you to a steep high speed dive. At high speed you cannot change directions easily and this makes it easier for him to step out of the way. You will blow away more energy in the pull out or aiming corrections in a steep high speed dive.

What you should do, instead of diving at the bandit, dive behind the bandit. You start to pull out of the dive before getting guns on him and execute your attack while in a shallow div, level, or even in a small angle climb (best). See, if you dive straight down on him, he needs to pull 90  into you. If you dive behind him, he needs to pull nearly 180 degrees to bring his nose to you - also, while he is turning he will go through 90 degree aspect (instead of starting from 90 deg) and most likely by the time you get you guns on him you will get a full plane view to aim at.

To sum up - the best approach is in a curved line. You keep the bandit in view above your nose, control your speed better, save energy, and it takes him more angles and more energy to defend against your attack.

[FLS]

I thought a Split S could be vertical. I appreciate the correction. Most of what I mentioned was to perform the Immelmann in the verticle after an overshoot if the enemy comes close to matching your E from a nose down turn or nose down overshoot attempt in general.

Everyone is welcome to post their experience. Proper terminology is preferred but not required. 

Here's a link for future reference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers
Note the turn circle graphic is useless and the one circle and two circle flow graphic both show headon merges which is incorrect. I don't know why everyone screws that up unless it's another case of the USN and USAF using different definitions.  Maybe one of our pro's can explain it. The terminology is generally OK.

[hgtonyvi]

Ok from what Violator said can work also. What the opponent is doing, he is going nose down in a turn to merg with you being higher. But he doesn't give u room for a shot, what he does is bring his plane below your shot forcing u to over shoot, then he rolls back over and gets ur 6 for a possible snap shot. When your are diving trying eagerly to make that shot he forces his plane into an angle to make ur cockpit/dashboard impossible to see him and then he pulls hard over. The Opponent is trying to force you to commit to a stall fight, where it might end up turning into a rolling spiral scissors fight or if you are smart not to bite his evasive move, just pull up couple seconds before and force your energy onto him. Now if you both were flying the same plane you might wana cut ur throttle on the way down and get ready for a deadly stall fight. Its either ur gonna win or lose. To be safer in the MA just keep ur energy and dont commit to his evasive up under maneuver.

[Skyyr]

This move, Muzzy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGWDPxTa9GU

[SPKmes]

Hey Muzzy .... I am not fancy in my explanations...but lets try this.

I think you are possibly over commiting and not flying your plane out..... when you dive in cut your throttle a bit...dive in at a plane length behind.... when you see them pull up (for this instance...doing this you can watch what they are doing and react to any move made) throttle up whilst trying to follow.... don't try to make the shot...if it is there take it but don't force it... follow through and go up reset.... watch as you go by...they will follow a little but won't have the E you do...now some can will and do make a good shot when hung but most will miss...if it is someone like myself I will not follow you up but prepare for your next pass....this is where watching is very important.... you need to watch your opponent the moment you pass...as soon as you see a change either flailing,flattening out or rolling over to dive away you need to be nose over and pressing the attack again before they can gain too much forward momentum again...

Ultimately...closure rate is what you need to watch...you need to be just a bit faster than the con....if you are too fast abort and reset as you will blow more e trying to stick with them... too slow and if you overshoot you will not get away from their guns fast enough....
The other thing...don't go full on into a turning/rolling scissor from your first pass..... you still have too much momentum to slow down as fast as them and they will just slip in behind and you can not get away......

 

[FLS]

Here's a link for future reference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers
Note the turn circle graphic is useless and the one circle and two circle flow graphic both show headon merges which is incorrect. I don't know why everyone screws that up unless it's another case of the USN and USAF using different definitions.  Maybe one of our pro's can explain it. The terminology is generally OK.

I figured out what's been confusing me here. The USAF talks about one and two circle fights, they also talk about flow and counter flow. The USN talks about one and two circle flow as well as flow and counter flow.

In both cases "one circle" is initiated by pilot A turning away from pilot B while pilot B turns into pilot A. So the start of "one circle" is the same for both services with both pilot's flight paths starting the same circle.

In "two circle"  both pilots turn into each other and start two different circles.

Flow refers to pilot A's direction of turn relative to pilot B. Counter flow means they are turning in opposite directions and meeting head on.

The difference which confused me about the diagrams is that a one circle fight (USAF) can end up in flow or counter flow but one circle flow (USN) is always nose to nose. A two circle fight (USAF) can also end up in flow or counter flow but two circle flow (USN) is always nose to tail.

I hope that's clear enough without illustrations.  .

[Mar]

I don't know much about all this flow business, but it sounds like what you're saying is you got confused about the difference between a one circle merge and a lufbery when trying to read that USAF and USN stuff.