Author Topic: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?  (Read 1768 times)

Offline Scherf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3409
Re: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2015, 03:06:32 AM »
I think the Brits had something like 14 operational Spits at the time of the Munich crisis, and then with 87 octane and constant-pitch propellers. Will dig the quote out. I have a feeling the previous time that European maps were re-drawn was 1919, and many of the people involved weren't consulted then, either.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Re: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2015, 03:07:35 AM »
If it wasn't for Chamberlain we wouldn't have a WW2 flight sim.  :lol
Yes we would. It would have looked completely different though.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline zack1234

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13217
Re: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2015, 06:03:21 AM »
If it wasn't for Chamberlain we wouldn't have a WW2 flight sim.  :lol

 :rofl
There are no pies stored in this plane overnight

                          
The GFC
Pipz lived in the Wilderness near Ontario

Offline SysError

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1009
Re: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2015, 06:19:20 AM »
Why do i get a download when i open this thread?

Some strange file downloads :mad:

I get that too. It is because the OP tried to embed the YouTube frame in his post (or so I think).

Just opening the thread?

All I did was cut paste the you tube link, highlight the link, click on the YouTube icon. 

Is everyone getting this?

Do you guys have Flash loaded?  in other words do you see the opening YouTube screen?  (Maybe it has to do with versions of Flash.   Any ideas?)

=======================
SysError

Dante's Crew

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

Offline SysError

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1009
Re: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2015, 06:20:14 AM »
If it wasn't for Chamberlain we wouldn't have a WW2 flight sim.  :lol

 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
=======================
SysError

Dante's Crew

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

Offline SysError

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1009
Re: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2015, 06:31:44 AM »
I think the Brits had something like 14 operational Spits at the time of the Munich crisis, and then with 87 octane and constant-pitch propellers. Will dig the quote out. I have a feeling the previous time that European maps were re-drawn was 1919, and many of the people involved weren't consulted then, either.

During the debate there was a brief mention that Chamberlin and Churchill disagreed about how to build up the RAF.  From what I gathered Churchill wanted medium bombers and Chamberlin wanted heavy bombers and Spits.  No one really went into it expect to point out that Churchill fought WWII with Chamberlin's air force.
=======================
SysError

Dante's Crew

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23936
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2015, 06:39:00 AM »
Just opening the thread?

All I did was cut paste the you tube link, highlight the link, click on the YouTube icon. 

Is everyone getting this?

If you (like me) don't have flash installed you will get this popup for each youtube video someone has embedded in the thread. Can get quite annoying, especially as they all pop up again when you post something.
I tried a firefox plugin to stop this, but that didn't work...
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

In November 2025, Lusche will return for a 20th anniversary tour. Get your tickets now!

Offline Hap

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3908
Re: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2015, 07:03:09 AM »
Sys,

Viewing now; thanks for the thread and the tip on the channel.

Offline cpxxx

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2707
Re: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2015, 07:24:09 AM »
Chamberlin like most people wanted to avoid war. The experience of WW1 was very recent and people had no wish to repeat it. Appeasement seemed to be the way to go and Hitler wasn't seen in the way we see him now. In fact much of what he wanted would have seemed reasonable to many people. Most people realised that Germany had been treated unfairly by the Versailles treaty.

But was he right? Even at the time many people felt he only delayed the inevitable and many believe it emboldened Hitler into believing that Britain wouldn't intervene when he carried out his plans. Remember even when he invaded Poland, Hitler found it necessary to stage a provocation at the border to justify his invasion in the hope it would keep the British and French out of the war.

Appeasement only works for a while. There is a modern equivalent. Putin is no Hitler or Stalin, not yet anyway. But neither figure became demagogues overnight. It's a gradual thing. His annexation of Crimea and parts of Ukraine is seem in some quarters as reasonable, after all wasn't Crimea part of Russia anyway? Plus there's all those Russians living in Ukraine need protection from the Ukranians don't they? It's a slippery slope. What next, some 'provocation' on the Estonian border? 

He is busy getting rid of the opposition at the moment. Soon he can move to the next stage.

Offline Ratsy

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
Re: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2015, 08:48:43 AM »
To credit Chamberlain with building the RAF's war-fighting infrastructure in the 30's is to forget the long-suffering perseverance of Sir Hugh Dowding.  Dowding's efforts were successful despite Chamberlain and certain members of the peerage because Dowding's aspirations were at odds with the sitting Government's diplomatic goals.  Chain Home, hardened telephone infrastructure, and the concept of sector control stations were quietly moved forward by Dowding and Lord Beaverbrook even when the threat was inconceivable to most educated people.

Like the fights of all good process architects, Dowding's fights in the 30's boiled down to doing the right thing because it was the right thing to do.  This, in direct opposition with what the bean-counters and yes-men had to say.  Dowding has often been described as stuffy little single-minded bastige.  That's just fine with me.  We might all be grateful for it.

Getting a correct perspective on history is not often the result of forensic debates, rather it is from unbiased research.

But I could be completely incorrect.

While I'm being assertive, I agree that Putin is no Hitler or Stalin.  Maybe he's more 'Don Corleone'.  Only an idiot would ignore the potential evil of a Mafia Don.  If you do internet business with Russian enterprise...use PayPal, not PayPalski.  All kidding aside, CPXXX makes good points about the current situation in Ukraine.  80-years from now, if we are still allowed an opinion, we might debate how cunning he was to use a Winter Olympics and the distraction of the events in the middle east to recreate the iron curtain.  But, I could be totally wrong about this as well.

 :salute

George "Ratsy" Preddy
328th FS - 352nd FG
Died December 25th, 1944, Near Liege - Ardennes

Operating with the Arabian Knights - callsign AKRaider

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9499
Re: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2015, 09:04:00 AM »
Getting a correct perspective on history is not often the result of forensic debates, rather it is from unbiased research.

But I could be completely incorrect.


...well...OK...you are!  There is no unbiased research.  The only guy I know of who even came close was Hugh Thomas in his history of the Spanish Civil War.  Otherwise every researcher/writer has a perspective, conscious or unconscious, which colors what he researches, what he finds important and what he emphasizes in his writing.  There's nothing sinister about this, it's unavoidable.  Debating the research helps to uncover the biases and identify other important events.

- oldman

Offline Rich46yo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
Re: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2015, 09:29:43 AM »
Chamberlain ignored the lessons of history, just as others ignored the lessons of history. There is nothing to be gained by the appeasement of tyrants and the only safety is the safety you have to pay and bleed for. And that safety is thru strength. I think the Western Democracies are all united in the belief that all other peoples in the world are as supportive of peace and rationality as we are. The real problem is that most of the rest of the world has no voice or power to control anything in their lives. We vote them out ; "They" can only simply survive them.

I also have to say no matter what Chamberlain did the French screwed up even worse. Not just in negotiations but they misused probably the finest fighting force in the world at the time. Their Generals were screw balls. In almost every instance they had better weaponry then the Germans yet they failed to devise modern methods to deploy that weaponry, even worse they totally screwed up in the area of communications and Intelligence. Their leadership was poor as well, except for a few examples in the lower ranks.

I hope nobody ever forgets one person actually can start a war that claims tens of millions of lives.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline Ratsy

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
Re: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2015, 09:31:25 AM »
Arrrrrg!  Ya caught me. 

I'm the same guy who reminded us that "history is written by the victors..."  ad nauseum.  Of course it's biased.  Perhaps debates serve to REMIND us that it's biased so we can consume the corresponding grain of salt?

We learn a great deal from debates, whether we agree with the outcomes or not.  That is also true.  If nothing else, it inspires us to think our own deeper thoughts.

I'm not familiar with Hugh Thomas so I don't know why you would spare him your own broad brush.  History without perspective is pretty dull.  A unit-sized operational history reports the facts without the perspective of the pilot's personalities, the capabilities and limitations of the aircraft, etc.  By simple definition it is still history, but if a human wrote it, it is still somewhat biased.  I've never read an after-action report from WWII that clearly stated "we got slaughtered today".  It would never be allowed.  Can you imagine the political difficulty of writing the combat reports for the 100th BG?

Oldman, sir, thank you for reminding all of us of our humanity!

 :salute
George "Ratsy" Preddy
328th FS - 352nd FG
Died December 25th, 1944, Near Liege - Ardennes

Operating with the Arabian Knights - callsign AKRaider

Offline SysError

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1009
Re: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2015, 10:18:40 AM »
...But was he right? Even at the time many people felt he only delayed the inevitable and many believe it emboldened Hitler into believing that Britain wouldn't intervene when he carried out his plans. Remember even when he invaded Poland, Hitler found it necessary to stage a provocation at the border to justify his invasion in the hope it would keep the British and French out of the war. ...

Agree.  but in 1935-38 what where his real choices??


Chamberlain ignored the lessons of history, just as others ignored the lessons of history.

Most people felt at the time that when Nostradamus refused to join the cabinet that Chamberlain's Government was doomed.   :old:



I also have to say no matter what Chamberlain did the French screwed up even worse. Not just in negotiations but they misused probably the finest fighting force in the world at the time. Their Generals were screw balls. In almost every instance they had better weaponry then the Germans yet they failed to devise modern methods to deploy that weaponry, even worse they totally screwed up in the area of communications and Intelligence. Their leadership was poor as well, except for a few examples in the lower ranks.

Agree with you on the French, but wasn't it the British that were supposed to keep/defend north of the Maginot line?


=======================
SysError

Dante's Crew

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: Neville Chamberlain Did The Right Thing?
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2015, 10:49:25 AM »
I think the thing that I'm not convinced about is:
What would have happened if Chamberlain declared war on Germany over the Sudetenland?
France wouldn't have been behind him,
The US wouldn't have been behind him,
The whole 'he would've been assassinated' line is BS, how many times did people try to assassinate Hitler? Remember who took his life in the end.

Armchair historians can say 'Germany would have fallen quickly and easily, Czechoslovakia would have been able to hold out' etc., but going on what? Defense strategists of the time? The defense strategists of the time that thought Poland would hold long enough for France to fully mobilize and invade Germany while the latter was bogged down there?

Beside going to war without allies, how would the world see Britain? Going to war with Germany over reclaiming a land that was mostly German and had been ruled by Germans until 20 years before? Reclaiming a land that could be seen as little more than an unfortunate mistake in the haphazard line redrawing of Versailles? Would Britain be seen as the warmongering bad guy in the '20/20 hindsight' lens of history which tends to forget things like context? Am I supposed to believe that a peace-seeking, fascist-sympathetic US would have slapped Britain on the back with a 'good show, chap'?

What would have happened if Britain did militarily humiliate Germany? Would they have had the authority to remove Hitler? Would Hitler have only been emboldened, with more international support? Even if he had decided to no longer pursue military conquest, if he would have stayed in power what would have happened after the 'Jews in London' stopped him from reuniting the Germans? Actually, there's no need for a question there. We know what Hitler was doing.

Alternatively, if Hitler falls from grace, who comes to power?
The KPD decided in the early thirties that, at least if the fascists came to power, people would realize how stupid fascism and capitalism were once these forces were dismantled and humiliated. After 5 years of persecution and exclusion from political discourse, without the dividing up/occupation of Germany, Hitler's expulsion would've probably been the fascist collapse that the KPD was convinced was coming and would be their cue to take power. Assuming the collapse of Hitler's government, a communist revolution is not only imaginable, but maybe the most likely thing. A very, very powerful and well developed socialist state in the middle of Europe is the last thing western capitalism would want. And certainly two socialist states wouldn't have stood for a reactionary authoritarian state existing between them; the Second Polish Republic was doomed either way.

Waiting until it was too late, knowing well with full certainty what Hitler's imperialistic aims were, and this knowledge giving the high ground in completely dismantling the German government, was maybe (probably?) the best possible outcome after Hitler's rise to power in the 30s.

Anyway, the takeaway people seem to be getting from this is 'stop being a p*ssy and go to war!' which is a pretty broad brush to paint with from the lessons learned from the Second World War. Especially considering WWII is maybe the only example in the 20th century of war being the 'good' option. For every World War II, there is a completely pointless war that costs millions of lives to no constructive outcome (or leaving the world in much worse shape), a la the First World War. On top of that, there are dozens of crises where jingos were crying for scalps and heads but cooler heads, thank god, prevailed: such as the entire Cold War.

'Righteous' wars are held up and heralded and etc. etc., we remember the people who had the 'courage' to start them and fight them. Wars are cataclysmic and traumatizing events and are hard to forget. It's hard to look at wars that are pretty much pointless in an objective manner because we don't want to trivialize the loss of life. But it's extremely easy to forget when the knee was not jerked and, despite the world being on the brink of being turned into a giant glass parking lot, it was not: 'there was never any real danger', we say, and move on.

In closing, referring to Russia, I will say: Putin, while certainly a despot and a crazy nationalist and a warmonger, is maybe the most moderate elected figure in Russian politics today. The LDPR is much much more ultranationalist; the current major socialist party 'a Just Russia' is maybe the most moderate, but it is the result of a merger still centered around a far-right nationalist party, Rodina ('motherland'); the fourth party is the successor to the Soviet communist party, the direct lineage of Lenin's Bolsheviks. There are no other elected parties in Russia. No one knows the solution for dealing with Russia, but it's certainly not a simple one.
Further, no one is sitting in Petersburg 'giving' Putin Crimea or the Donbass the way France and Britain and the US were in Munich 'giving' Hitler the Sudetenland. It's hard to see right now, and it may not be as dramatic as we want to see, but international sanctions have lead to a tanking of the Russian economy, certainly worse than has been seen since the fall of the USSR, and according to some Russians the worst conditions since WWII. This is going to have repercussions some way or another. We'll just have to wait and see how.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 11:17:58 AM by Motherland »