Author Topic: Musashi found!  (Read 1775 times)

Offline caldera

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Musashi found!
« on: March 04, 2015, 09:44:04 AM »
https://twitter.com/PaulGAllen/status/572431062522982400/photo/1


Love this comment: "SWEET, TIME TO BUILD A SPACESHIP WITH IT AND FIGHT THE ALIENS" 
Snuggie - voted "Sexiest Man Alive" for the entire Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere!

Offline Drano

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Re: Musashi found!
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2015, 11:23:06 AM »
https://twitter.com/PaulGAllen/status/572431062522982400/photo/1


Love this comment: "SWEET, TIME TO BUILD A SPACESHIP WITH IT AND FIGHT THE ALIENS"

Yeah but they'd need the Yamato for that! Loved Star Blazers.
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Offline caldera

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Re: Musashi found!
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2015, 12:34:45 PM »
First, they have to figure out how to drain the Pacific.

Snuggie - voted "Sexiest Man Alive" for the entire Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere!

Offline Drano

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Re: Musashi found!
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2015, 12:41:01 PM »
Stupid Gamilons got out in front of that wave motion gun every time! Like the uber tater from hell.

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FSO flying with the 412th Friday Night Volunteer Group

Offline Gman

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Re: Musashi found!
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2015, 02:04:22 PM »
I laughed at that Twitter comment too, I was going to post a meme/pic of that right up until I saw the comment.

Paul Allen is such a great person when it comes to WW2 history, and funding teams of researchers and whatnot.  His plane collection and all those guys he employs for that is great, but I've read he spent millions to add the highest tech sonar and RPV/drone tech to outfit his yacht and hire the best researchers and people to look for Musashi.  It's something seeing that chrysanthemum on the bow after all these years. 

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Musashi found!
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2015, 03:00:21 PM »
Yeah its great that it was found. Yet we cant alter the History behind her even if the BB era she represented was romantic and exciting. The Musashi was probably the biggest waste of high grade steel in Military History and the Yamato wasnt much better.

They were built for a different war. And built during the period the IJN was creating a different way to fight Pacific war's, one where BBs lost much relevance. Most of all for nations with only limited resources planning on an Empire with a huge periphery that realistically could only be protected by sea and land based air power.

Yet they provided the resources to build these behemoths. These werent BBs laid down between wars but they were laid down in the late '30s. Well I guess the IJN wasnt alone. Other nations were laying down super BBs in the '30s too. But the AA of the Yamato class just sucked. Even after it was improved it sucked. The fire control and radars left much to be desired.

But they were beautiful. I recommend the Japanese made movie "Yamato" to every WW2 Buff.
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Offline Gman

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Re: Musashi found!
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2015, 04:57:44 PM »
Ya, you have to wonder what the theory was behind building them.  Japan focused a lot on their carrier/naval aviation.  Obviously, the were the first ones to really use it to great affect, and if they had caught the US carriers in Pearl, the war would have taken another year two, heck, the Japanese could have invaded Pearl possibly, who knows.

My point is, how could they not realize that spending so much on 2 huge battleships was a little futile when they themselves were architects of naval air power at the start, surely they should have known that a single CV of their own would massively over match their own super capitol battleships so long as they didn't get within gun range, some 30 odd miles or whatever.  Odd.  Perhaps they were just in love with surface gun wagons, they did well enough with their cruisers, had some pretty successful gun battles with US ships especially at night, but that was years after they laid down the hulls for the 2 super ships.  I would say that they started building them before anyone had seen what naval air power was truly capable of, that's part of it IMO.

However the comments about AA are true enough, the US learned its lessons and if you look at AA armament on ships in 41 and compare them to 45, there is a massive difference, the USN even purposely built large ships that were dedicated AA platforms. 

I'll bet when the Japanese used planes vs Prince of Wales and company, they saw the writing on the wall for their own large warships, so far as using them in an offensive role without air superiority. 

Funny how history repeated itself later, in some ways.  The USSR built some large battlecruisers but never had any CV capable of launching more than crappy vstolv aircraft until late in the game, and then they only had...few, and they in turn had few aircraft that had crappy range.  At least a war didn't happen to reprove the issue then.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 05:00:24 PM by Gman »

Offline Slash27

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Re: Musashi found!
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2015, 05:31:59 PM »
We got some good mileage out of the Iowa class.

Offline Gman

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Re: Musashi found!
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2015, 06:27:16 PM »
Agree, but look what the USN did with it compared to say the Soviets with their Kirov class.  Primarily, and this was my previous point, the USN would have been very capable of maintaining air superiority over the Iowa class ships, the Soviets, not so much.  The guns had the ability to fire ship killing laser guided rounds, and had that little drone, one of the first uses of military drones back in the 80s for targeting the gun rounds vs either ships or land based targets.  Keeping them around wasn't a bad idea because the CVNs and CVs existed - had they not, the Iowa would be just another target like the Yamato and Musashi. 

Since the USN did have the ability to protect the Iowa class from aircraft, they were great ships, as they were tough (probably could have ate some bombs, certainly anti ship missiles of the day, and survived, even continued to fight), held a wide variety of different armament (piles of Harpoons, Tomahawks, 5" guns, and of course the main armament attitude adjusters).  I wish they were still available, great at so many things, except being cheap to man and operate. 

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Musashi found!
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2015, 06:50:49 PM »
Ya, you have to wonder what the theory was behind building them.  Japan focused a lot on their carrier/naval aviation.  Obviously, the were the first ones to really use it to great affect, and if they had caught the US carriers in Pearl, the war would have taken another year two, heck, the Japanese could have invaded Pearl possibly, who knows.

My point is, how could they not realize that spending so much on 2 huge battleships was a little futile when they themselves were architects of naval air power at the start, surely they should have known that a single CV of their own would massively over match their own super capitol battleships so long as they didn't get within gun range, some 30 odd miles or whatever.  Odd.  Perhaps they were just in love with surface gun wagons, they did well enough with their cruisers, had some pretty successful gun battles with US ships especially at night, but that was years after they laid down the hulls for the 2 super ships.  I would say that they started building them before anyone had seen what naval air power was truly capable of, that's part of it IMO.

However the comments about AA are true enough, the US learned its lessons and if you look at AA armament on ships in 41 and compare them to 45, there is a massive difference, the USN even purposely built large ships that were dedicated AA platforms. 

I'll bet when the Japanese used planes vs Prince of Wales and company, they saw the writing on the wall for their own large warships, so far as using them in an offensive role without air superiority. 

Funny how history repeated itself later, in some ways.  The USSR built some large battlecruisers but never had any CV capable of launching more than crappy vstolv aircraft until late in the game, and then they only had...few, and they in turn had few aircraft that had crappy range.  At least a war didn't happen to reprove the issue then.

The reasons for building the Yamato and Musashi were rather simple ones and the reason why most navies at the time still invested in building battleships.  For the projection of that nation's power.  When the military expansionists gained power in Japan, they withdrew from the League of Nations and also renounced all treaty obligations, which meant they were now free to build ships larger than they were restricted to by the Washington Naval Treaty.  To protect their conquests, they needed to field ships that would allow them to project their power and at the same time intimidate any potential adversary.

As for the resources, the IJN actually felt they were saving resources in building these ships.  The main adversary the Japanese felt they'd face in war was the US, so they started to build their ships that were individually superior to their USN counter-parts.  Their battleships were designed to engage multiple targets, getting rid of the need to spend as much industrial effort as the US on building battleships. 

Also remember that the Japanese did not expect to fight a protracted general war, they honestly believed they'd only be engaged in a short war lasting 6 months, or shorter.
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Offline Gman

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Re: Musashi found!
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2015, 06:54:36 PM »
Quote
Also remember that the Japanese did not expect to fight a protracted general war, they honestly believed they'd only be engaged in a short war lasting 6 months, or shorter.

Very true, Yamamoto was one of very few of their leadership that didn't believe this.  He lived in the USA, many others hadn't seen first hand the things he did I guess.

Are many of the Japanese people in your company interested in Japan's military history AckAck?

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Musashi found!
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2015, 09:29:56 PM »
Very true, Yamamoto was one of very few of their leadership that didn't believe this.  He lived in the USA, many others hadn't seen first hand the things he did I guess.

Are many of the Japanese people in your company interested in Japan's military history AckAck?

Not many that I know of.  They will usually politely change the subject if it ever comes up.  There was one guy, he was the manager of our TQA department that was interested in WW2 aviation, his grandfather was a pilot in the IJA and survived the war.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Musashi found!
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2015, 11:27:12 PM »
Just an aside to the Musashi find.  In my small collection of WW2 aviation bits, I have the flying helmet of a USS Intrepid Helldiver pilot who won a Navy Cross for scoring one of those hits on the Musashi.

Amazing that something so big and supposedly so powerful could die from a swarm of airplanes.
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Offline Muzzy

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Re: Musashi found!
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2015, 12:41:02 AM »
The film Otoko-Tachi No Yamato did a pretty good job of depicting the Yamato under heavy air attack. Musashi pretty much faced the same situation.


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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Musashi found!
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2015, 12:52:09 AM »
The film Otoko-Tachi No Yamato did a pretty good job of depicting the Yamato under heavy air attack. Musashi pretty much faced the same situation.

It was viciously real. The USN fighters would concentrate their fire on one side of a ship, degrade or eliminate the AA on that one side, and then send the torpedo planes in. One of the reason the IJN was so bad at defending its ships against air attack was their lack of a mid sized AA gun. In this the Bofors 40mm was the best in the world. The IJN simply welded on a bunch of crummy magazine fed 25mm guns http://www.combinedfleet.com/25_60.htm and left the crews wide open to the 0.50 MGs of the American Hellcats and other naval planes. The movie Yamato showed what happened in horrendous detail. The movie is a must for any WW2 DVD collection.

This at a time when USN AA was the best in the world. Even featuring proximity fuses, and still, look at the havoc Kamakazi's caused.

There was a 3rd Yamato class laid out, the Shinano. This BB was laid in '40 and was only converted to become a CV in '42 after Midway. So there were plenty of old timers still around in the IJN who wanted BBs until disaster looked them in the face. Shinano did about as much as Musashi, and Yamato didnt do much more. Tho it did sink a few ships I believe in the Philippine Sea battles. A few DDs and maybe an escort CV, I may be wrong.

In these super Battle wagons most of their ordinance was used firing into the water in front of USN torpedo planes creating, or trying to, walls of water for the attacking planes to fly into. I honestly dont know if it worked or not but was dissapointed when the movie didnt portray that realistically at least.

Should they have been built? Would it have mattered? They were up against an enemy that authorized the construction of roughly 40 Essex class Super Carriers, all far exceeding anything the IJN could ever have with air groups the IJN could never come close to matching. And 24 were built, the rest not! cause they weren't needed. We had entire fleets made up of multiple super carriers and supporting ships.

In 1940 the IJN was the best navy in the world. But they took on an Allied force they couldnt hope to beat. Obviously it looked different to them back then which is kinda fascinating. Or do you think many knew? And just wanted to die as warriors?
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