Musashi found!

[Karnak]

What do you guys think about the USS Panay incident?  As well as the Allison incident shortly after, where a Japanese soldier struck the US Ambassador?

The Japanese bombed a US ship in Nanking that was very obviously marked with large US flags painted on the deck and structures, impossible to miss, yet it was deliberately bombed at close range by Japanese aircraft, survivors in small boats and rafts repeatedly strafed, and even had Japanese soldiers in a small boat attack the Panay with MG fire, even shooting the US Flag that was clearly obvious on the structures of the ship.

These incidents are indicative of Japanese attitudes towards America a few years before they attacked Pearl. 

Both incidents do give credence to the arguments about Japanese aggressive attitudes and thinking prior to 1941 IMO.

Not sure about the first, but the Panay was pretty clearly a test of American resolve to see how we'd react.  From the Japanese perspective I think they saw a weak and vacillating reaction that further encouraged them to walk towards attacking us in full.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

What do you guys think about the USS Panay incident?  As well as the Allison incident shortly after, where a Japanese soldier struck the US Ambassador?

The Japanese bombed a US ship in Nanking that was very obviously marked with large US flags painted on the deck and structures, impossible to miss, yet it was deliberately bombed at close range by Japanese aircraft, survivors in small boats and rafts repeatedly strafed, and even had Japanese soldiers in a small boat attack the Panay with MG fire, even shooting the US Flag that was clearly obvious on the structures of the ship.

These incidents are indicative of Japanese attitudes towards America a few years before they attacked Pearl. 

Both incidents do give credence to the arguments about Japanese aggressive attitudes and thinking prior to 1941 IMO.

Think how different times are now. If some country repeated this today, reactions would be quite different. In those days people probably read about it 2 weeks later in the afternoon paper.

[PR3D4TOR]

I don't know Ripley... A lot of incidents have happened since without starting wars. Including one incident were the Israelis bombed and strafed a US ship.

[mbailey]

Think how different times are now. If some country repeated this today, reactions would be quite different. In those days people probably read about it 2 weeks later in the afternoon paper.

Actually I think it's quite similar to today......we started ratching up sanctions pretty heavy between 37 till the start of the war. Sounds  eerily similar to today's reactions to  (some) global incidents.

[PR3D4TOR]

I've unsuccessfully been looking for a subtitled version of a Japanese TV series for some time now. It follows some Japanese military families through the wars of the late 1800's and early 1900's culminating in the Russo-Japanese war.

Despite the moron Turk who added the retarded music this is still an awesome scene!

[Gman]

Well said Karnak - others as well.

Ripley - I agree, the modern age has changed things a lot in terms of public opinion, which is where politicians/those in power often, not always, but often derive the power to execute war.  I'm not saying it is a necessity, but it certainly plays a large role.  It can be whipped up, manipulated, and used, far more quickly now than in WW2 and newspaper days.

I've been watching some vids on youtube by Journeyman Pictures, he has several on Japan and its current re-militirization.  I recommend them for anyone interested in comparing the preWW2 Japan to things now with the current tensions with China.  It's different in many ways now, but some things have stayed the same.  The ...I hate to call it propaganda, but I can't find a less harsh word atm - is spooling up in Japan, there are films honoring the Kamikaze in the works, a lot of stuff like that.  Attitudes have done a complete 180 in Japan faster than anyone could ever have predicted.  Very interesting stuff.

It's hard to know what to think about it all, without knowing China's true intentions.  Obviously with their insane military expansion in the last decade, they must be up to something - although the argument can be made that they are just matching the Western powers in numbers, as they still haven't truly caught up in numbers of ships and aircraft, but they are closing.  Infantry/army is another story, they've always hugely outnumbered the west, but have had no way of moving them into an offensive posture or invading anything other than a neighboring nation through land routes.

IMO Japan is just reacting to what China is doing by necessity, and is going about it in the best way they can, as they are very new to all of this.

[Gman]

I'd also say the reason this interests me is that the Japanese, regardless of how you can rationalize the reasons as to why it happened, surprised the USA at the beginning of the war.  That's the definition of surprise, getting hit without your guard up, and that describes Pearl very accurately IMO.

Now, in recent times, if you discount 9/11 which was a terrorist attack and not an attack by a national military force, the USA has always had surprise, or time, on its side.  What I mean is the US military had time to design plans, gather intel, run test exercises, and all of that, prior to the Gulf War, the 2n Iraq invasion, Afghanistan, what have you.

I have a strong belief that the next war, the US won't have that time, and will have to react to widespread area attacks by a well equipped and trained enemy, or even an alliance of enemies.  That is going to suck, big time.  Anyone else think along these lines?  Having days and weeks to pour over maps, look at advanced sat and ISR asset information, use it to create detailed plans of attack and defense...none of that will be possible if another surprise attack comes just like it did in 1941.

Imagine tomorrow, boom, China hits Japan, Vietnam, and Taiwan, whoever else it has been sparring with, with a series of wide spread attacks.  Then launches an invasion of Taiwan.  Sounds crazy, but wth else can they be planning considering current actions?

What kind of shape is the West in to react to that instantly, without the benefit of weeks and months of planning. Of course, I realize there are "war plans" in drawers for all contingencies, but these always need to be shored up with current information.  Ask any war planner if he would want to have to instantly react with plans to stop attacks such as China could launch based on previously created war plans.  The enemy always does things you couldn't have had predicted in previous plans, and friendly war planners always are on the defensive when a surprise attack happens.

Given the current cuts to the military, I wonder of the US and the rest of the West even COULD react to such a Chinese attack, without completely crippling the economies.  China must know this, and is proceeding accordingly IMO.  I don't think that they are confident they would get away with such attacks, and that the US wouldn't wipe the floor with a lot of their force - yet, but I believe that's the direction they are moving towards.  Increases military capability, while the US and West's are decreasing, due to budget and money problems mostly.

[Ack-Ack]

What do you guys think about the USS Panay incident?  As well as the Allison incident shortly after, where a Japanese soldier struck the US Ambassador?

The Japanese bombed a US ship in Nanking that was very obviously marked with large US flags painted on the deck and structures, impossible to miss, yet it was deliberately bombed at close range by Japanese aircraft, survivors in small boats and rafts repeatedly strafed, and even had Japanese soldiers in a small boat attack the Panay with MG fire, even shooting the US Flag that was clearly obvious on the structures of the ship.

These incidents are indicative of Japanese attitudes towards America a few years before they attacked Pearl. 

Both incidents do give credence to the arguments about Japanese aggressive attitudes and thinking prior to 1941 IMO.

The incident with USS Panay is an interesting one, it shows how powerful the Kwantung Army was within the IJA and government and it also shows the disconnect between the IJA and IJN. 

During the fall of Nanking, the foreign naval vessels on the river were busy collecting those foreigners that wanted to leave the city, and USS Panay was standing watch over the evacuations.  When artillery rounds started to come close to the Panay and other foreign ships, it was decided to move to safer anchorage up river and when they arrived at the new anchorage, they came under fire again from IJA artillery.  The Kwantung Army high command ordered the IJN air groups in the area to attack the ships on the river, telling the IJN that the ships were being used to evacuate retreating Chinese soldiers and the flags on the deck were an attempt to mislead the Japanese.  One IJN pilot from the 12th Air Group felt he had been instrumental in helping end the Chinese retreat north by "trapping the cat in the bag"

When the IJN command found out that it was USS Panay that was sunk and other foreign ships damaged, Admiral Hasegawa dispatched Vice Admiral Sugiyama to USS Augusta (flagship for the US Asiatic Fleet) and personally apologize and confirmed it was IJN planes that sunk Panay and blamed on being deceived by the Kwantung Army.

[Gman]

Nice write up AckAck, I hadn't read much of that yet.  It seems logical, the last part, about the apology, and I can understand it based on the disconnect you wrote of.  Japan ended up paying over 2 million to the USA in damages for the incident, not chump change on those days. 

Sentry Aloha is firing up.  Two of the best F15 squads in the USAF are going, as are many other fighter types.  Be interesting to see some of the results and China's reactions to some of the things already obviously being pointed in their direction that have been said about the exercise. 

[Rolex]

Those Australian videos are terrible. In the first video, the 94 year-old mini-submariner did not say Abe was leading the country down the same path. He said nothing remotely close and didn't mention anything about the current time. He spoke only about the past. They're adding commentary, not translating what's being said.

Japan is not becoming "militaristic" at all. Abe wants to revise Article 9 to allow collective defense actions with the US in the new world of terrorism, uncertainty on the Korean peninsula with such a young North Korean leader, the island disputes with South Korea and the continuous push by China to control shipping routes throughout the Western Pacific.

Also, there are no videos or movies glorifying the kamikaze in Japan. There are movies show the incredible hardship of them and their families, being trapped in a social system of pressure to volunteer. They are stories of sadness, not glory.

The Japanese Self Defense Forces have not killed a single person since the end of WWII. Millions of people have have been killed in conflicts around the world since then, but not one was killed by the JSDF. The police have probably killed less than 10 people in the last 70 years in the line of duty.

That's about three generations of people who have stuck to being peaceful. That's what I see...

[kilo2]

Well said Karnak - others as well.

Ripley - I agree, the modern age has changed things a lot in terms of public opinion, which is where politicians/those in power often, not always, but often derive the power to execute war.  I'm not saying it is a necessity, but it certainly plays a large role.  It can be whipped up, manipulated, and used, far more quickly now than in WW2 and newspaper days.

I've been watching some vids on youtube by Journeyman Pictures, he has several on Japan and its current re-militirization.  I recommend them for anyone interested in comparing the preWW2 Japan to things now with the current tensions with China.  It's different in many ways now, but some things have stayed the same.  The ...I hate to call it propaganda, but I can't find a less harsh word atm - is spooling up in Japan, there are films honoring the Kamikaze in the works, a lot of stuff like that.  Attitudes have done a complete 180 in Japan faster than anyone could ever have predicted.  Very interesting stuff.

It's hard to know what to think about it all, without knowing China's true intentions.  Obviously with their insane military expansion in the last decade, they must be up to something - although the argument can be made that they are just matching the Western powers in numbers, as they still haven't truly caught up in numbers of ships and aircraft, but they are closing.  Infantry/army is another story, they've always hugely outnumbered the west, but have had no way of moving them into an offensive posture or invading anything other than a neighboring nation through land routes.

IMO Japan is just reacting to what China is doing by necessity, and is going about it in the best way they can, as they are very new to all of this.

Funny Vice just released this mini doc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlJpb7wCr2U

[Gman]

Rolex, if you're right, that's a pretty major deal IMO, as that channel has a lot of subscribers, and they are editing what people of languages other than English are saying to suit their agenda...well, I'd love to be involved in calling them out on that.  It completely changes everything they are trying to run with their piece - from my comments you can probably tell I agree with your regarding Japan's current defense policy changes.  Journalists completely changing what Japanese veterans are saying - incendiary stuff, even though it isn't that surprising I guess.

[Rich46yo]

The question would be whether the US would have gone to war if they were not attacked directly. Most of the resources lost in the American embargo were in the British  and Dutch colonies that the Japanese conquered.

There is no division here. An Empire attacking and expanding aggressively is a threat unto itself. Even if Roosevelt wouldnt have been concerned, which is ludicrous, the Japanese mind set would have to be the very capable American forces right in the middle of their of their new Asian Empire is simply unacceptable. We were already giving away Destroyers and war equipment to the British so what could possibly convince the Japanese the American forces in Asia would remain benign as long as they themselves werent attacked?

These werent helpless Dutch possession's but extremely large and capable American Land, sea, and air forces.

While the Philippines sit right in the center of the supply lines, they are not an issue as long as the US stays out of the conflict. Could Roosevelt have declared war on Japan if Pearl and the Philippines are never attacked? Given the isolationism of the time, it's doubtful. Of course it's risky leaving the Philippines in American hands, but the threat is neutralized as long as they can keep the US out of th the war.

"Risky" doesnt quiet describe it. Not for the Philippines, not for Guam, Wale, Samoa, Midway, or the major fleet at PH. Suicidal is more like it. They knew the potential of America and to leave such an enemy untouched in the middle of your genocidal advance against other Democracy's, which tends to piss us off, is pretty bad planning.

"America" was the 800 lb Gorilla in the room. Not the Dutch, not the French, not even the English.

[Muzzy]

I think there's still a major question here that hasn't been addressed: would the US have gone to war with Japan if they were not attacked? Remember this is not the interventionist US that exists today. The American public were so isolationist that they didn't want to get involved in Europe, even though there was already a de facto war going on at sea that had claimed American lives. My contention is that Japan could have taken the resource-rich territories away from the British and the Dutch and the Americans would have done nothing. There's no way Roosevelt would have convinced the American public to declare war over a bunch of British Colonies, especially since most Americans were anti-war and anti colonial to begin with.

[Dichotomy]

I had the complete sets for both seasons on VHS and stupidly gave them to my nephews, figuring they would love them. 

They threw them in the effing trash. 

I found it on TPB if you're interested