Your favourite ride - and why?

[FBKampfer]

That's how it works for a plane that cannot turn as well. Escaping the fight is important for fast planes. Once the P51 gets about 2K away there is really nothing a follower can do. Out diving planes was a major strategy used against the axis to escape danger.

But it doesn't win fights. In real life, where the pilot was more important than the plane, the emphasis was correctly on bringing the pilot back alive.

But in AH, it's pretty irrelevant, since we seem to be possessing a new pilot each flight via voodoo magic or satanic rituals or something. The result is that the metrics for a good fighter change (or at least should, if the goal is absolute effectiveness). Emphasis is placed on ability to reach and control airspace, and as long as you have the fuel to get there and fight, range kinda doesn't matter. I'll just take 100% on the K4 vs 50% on the P-51. Surviving to land your kills is nice, but frankly dying and reuppimg is more effective.

[Karnak]

I am not an expert in the K-4, but I do know it is a great fighter for those who can use it.

I did find the Spit XIV to be a great P-51 killer as well.

I even find my Mossie a better fighter than the P-51D at low altitude.  It is a bit slower, but climbs as well or a bit better, turns better and has much better guns.

[FBKampfer]

I can never do well in the Mossie. It's just too big; controls aren't crisp enough, and I tend to take more hits than usual.

I have always wanted to learn it though. Who's resident mossie driver?

[Karnak]

I can never do well in the Mossie. It's just too big; controls aren't crisp enough, and I tend to take more hits than usual.

I have always wanted to learn it though. Who's resident mossie driver?

I don't know who is now, Bozon is good for sure, but your assessment is fairly accurate.  The Mossie's weaknesses are almost all defensive while its strengths are almost all offensive.  Makes it hard to recover initiative once you lose it.  I've managed to do so at times, most memorably in two cases against La-7s, one against a Spitfire Mk VIII, once against a Typhoon that came in as I was BnZing a P-51D down and once against an Fw190A-8 and P-51D pair.

[Latrobe]

Idk man, although the 109k is a great plane, I still think the P51 has much better overall performance than the K. All a P51 has to do is dive away with a little bit of alt to get away from the K4. The K4 cannot dive, which severely limits the potential of the aircraft. The P51 holds E better than the K, turns faster at higher speeds, and has the advantage during a high alt fight, so the tables can be turnt real quick against a 109k who kills all their speed too quickly. The 109K barely turns inside of the P51, so depending on the pilot, a good p51 stick could give a lessor skilled pilot a hard fight for a death. The P51 is much more suitable over 10K. It can dive and make a fast pass quick shot a lot more easier than a K. The bullets are much easier to shoot in the P51. The p51 is best used in the BnZ style which is the most effective and easiest way to fly in the MA if you want to stay alive. The 109 is not a BnZer and is best flown at 10k. You have a lot more worrying to do about your SA than in the P51. You have to be a good slash attacker and good aimer in the K4 which are advanced skills in AH. So I think overall the P51 is a much better all around plane than the K givin the situation.

Besides all that the 109K4 has the 30mm which is still bugged all to uselessness. Therefore the 109K4 sucks. 

[M1A1]

The ability to win a fight depends on the pilot really regardless of the plane. There are way to many times the smarter pilot flying a lesser aircraft wins. For me the pony is given way to little credit. Last night 2 sorties back to back 3 kills each. First sortie all below 15 thousand. 2 109s, a K-4 and a G-6 and Spit 16. Second sortie on the deck over the water no higher than 3 thousand and against Spits, zeros and F4U's. As for me anyways, just getting kills means nothing, if I don't land them they don't count. While my pilot lives to fight againa regardless of the outcome I look at it in a realistic way, you can blame Zenzen for that. Flying with him as his wing man for 7 years it has been drilled into my head that landing the plane is just as important as anything else. To me anyone can up fly to a fight, get kills and die. Wash, rinse and repeat. getting out and landing scalps is all about the skill part. Knowing when where and why to exit is just as important in my book. Hence that is why you get less perks for dying than landing.
 Still the Pony is not for everyone, I love what it does and how it does it. I am still learning the finer points of the airframe, like I said before, she is an easy plane to fly but takes a long time to master.

[Karnak]

The P-51D is a good fighter.  It is not, as was being stated, the best fighter just like in WWII, where it was also not the best fighter.  All of the fighters I have suggested as better fighters are also good fighters, even the Mossie which I think is better in a very situational case, go up past, say, 5000ft and the P-51 is clearly superior to the Mossie.

The best piston engined fighter in a one on one in AH is pretty firmly the F4U-4.  In a many on many the Tempest V seems to be best.

[bozon]

DemonSlayr, that you mention diving as an escape is a measure of the K4's superiority. By diving out, you basically yield the fight, giving the K4 all the cards if you chose to come back.

The ability to escape is a huge offensive advantage in my view. It allows the pilot to take more chances and press the attack, knowing that he can abort and escape if things are not going his way. In situations that are not duels, the pilot becomes much more important than the plane and most fights are won or lost without exploiting the plane's performance to the max. In escaping, the plane share in success rates becomes larger than the pilot share.

A duel is very different that the MA, scenarios or WWII. In a duel K4 can pull moves that the P51 will have a very hard time to match. Those same moves, like spirals, prop hanging and torque reversals will get you killed very fast in a furball. Short range inaccurate guns with limited ammo are a major disadvantage in a fur ball, inspire of raw hitting power. The P51 guns are much more suitable for high speed passes without ever slowing down.

[DmonSlyr]

But it doesn't win fights. In real life, where the pilot was more important than the plane, the emphasis was correctly on bringing the pilot back alive.

But in AH, it's pretty irrelevant, since we seem to be possessing a new pilot each flight via voodoo magic or satanic rituals or something. The result is that the metrics for a good fighter change (or at least should, if the goal is absolute effectiveness). Emphasis is placed on ability to reach and control airspace, and as long as you have the fuel to get there and fight, range kinda doesn't matter. I'll just take 100% on the K4 vs 50% on the P-51. Surviving to land your kills is nice, but frankly dying and reuppimg is more effective.

I'll give you an example. Last night I upped a 51 for a little stress relief. It is one of my secret favorite planes. Now, I was all alone fighting a spit8 1v1 for a good time. All the sudden I see a 110 and another spit come into view 5K out. I have 2 decisions to make 1. Break the fight, allow the spit to gain my 6, and dive down a little to escape his guns, so that the 110 and spit weren't going to pick me in the fight like I knew they would. The second decision was keep on fighting and attempt to fight the 3v1. I decided I had enough of being ganged so after the loop I poured the coal to it and leveled out, I was able to get out of his trap by going around the loop and then leveling out to gain an E  extension while he was finishing his loop around. In some planes like the F4U I would not have been able to simply extend away after the loop and I'd have gotten ganged. The spit 8 stayed about 1000 yards away, just out of shooting reach. I was able to drag all 3 back to my territory and luckily a few friendlies were there to help. Now, the spit 8 was still following me, when my friendlies jumped the 110 and the other spit, I was now able to work the spit chasing me into another 1v1. He had actually pulled off and we remerged face to face. Him not being able to catch me was a huge advantage. I was able to fly to friendlies to clear the other guys and was able to reset the initial fight because he pulled off and I could now turn towards him to get nose to nose. After a long fight I ended up winning the 1v1 fight. Now, because I am solid in the P51, I was able to win. If the pilot wasnt so rusty in the spit, he should have won the 1v1 fight using a better turning plane. Even still, I could have dove away and either gone to land my kills or reset the merge again or take him into a nose down spiral barrel roll defense that works well when planes are diving on you. 

So this is why being able to dive out of fights is very important for planes that don't turn as well. I should not have turned to fight that spit again, but I wanted to fight. I should have lost the fight, but my experience paid off.

Planes that cannot dive well are at a disadvantage because if I'm diving on a 109K in my P51, and the 109K decides to nose down in an attempt to escape I can easily catch them in a dive, and the 109K will start compressing and his controls will tighten up, so I will have an easy shot.

Same if the 109K is diving on me, he will compress and I will be able to escape his dive whether I try to pull a BRD while he is compressing, or just simply extend away. In any instance, having a plane that can dive away from a group of con's, or dive onto another plane going 560, is very important in fighter combat!

[Zimme83]

Well, historically the K4 was a bomber interceptor, due to the situation in the air. It was never really intended to dog fight with pony's and spits. The 109 should BTW have been replaced by then but there wasn't any option but to try to upgrade the 109 so it could keep up with the Allied fighters.

But almost all LW rides from the western front like the pony, k4, spit XIV etc was designed for a type of fight we almost never see in the MA so it pretty natural that some of these planes have it harder in the MA. Spit XIV is prob the best example. Its a monster if u take it high enough.

[FBKampfer]

Again, you basically ran. Now I don't imply that, had you simply picked a K4, you would have won. I do, however, believe you would have won had you chosen to master the K4. Unless I'm misremembering the charts, a K4 wallops the snot out of the Spit 8 in terms of climb, acceleration, and top speed.

And again, I don't mean to say ability to escape is entirely useless, only that it's much less important in AH. Had you been fighting me for example, I you never would have dragged me co-alt to your buddies, since I would have been climbing the whole way, and at over 4000+fpm right up until 16k, a few minutes climbing is not to be taken lightly.


Now does being able to dive away add to the P-51's capability? Yes. Is it enough to tip things when the enemy has every other advantage over you? No. And that's what Karnak and I are saying.

[DmonSlyr]

Again, you basically ran. Now I don't imply that, had you simply picked a K4, you would have won. I do, however, believe you would have won had you chosen to master the K4. Unless I'm misremembering the charts, a K4 wallops the snot out of the Spit 8 in terms of climb, acceleration, and top speed.

And again, I don't mean to say ability to escape is entirely useless, only that it's much less important in AH. Had you been fighting me for example, I you never would have dragged me co-alt to your buddies, since I would have been climbing the whole way, and at over 4000+fpm right up until 16k, a few minutes climbing is not to be taken lightly.


Now does being able to dive away add to the P-51's capability? Yes. Is it enough to tip things when the enemy has every other advantage over you? No. And that's what Karnak and I are saying.

I have mastered the K4.
I have mastered the p51
 
I don't personally believe that in a 1v1 fight a K4 will out climb a spit 8. The spit 8 is easily one of the best verticle climbers in the game.

I had to run, there is simply no reason to fight 2 spits and a 110 in a P51 unless you initially have a major alt advantage. I even told em on 200 I was escaping from the gang scenario. The spit 8 would crush the K4 and P51 in almost any type of fight. It is simply just way more of a capable plane. I mean you could have been climbing, I still would have extended out of range and you would have forgot about me. That is huge for the P51. I could have gained alt as well. What you are not understanding is that you cannot fly every plane the same way. In a slash slow speed stall fight, the K4 would beat the P51. If the P51 is able to gain alt advantage during the fight, the P51 would win. The P51 holds E so much better than the K4. Its all about how well you know the planes and what you think you can get away with based on the pilot and plane your opponent chooses.



Just you wait till you find me in the MA. It won't matter what plane your in. 

[DmonSlyr]

There are just too many people who rely on charts to explain their argument. Charts only show a 2D concept of the plane, nothing else. Just because it has a slightly better climb and excel rate, does not make the plane better at performance in the MA setting.

The F4U4 is the best plane in the game, it goes super fast and turns super well, those are the 2 most deadly things a plane can do.

The tempest is just fast, but the P51 can out turn it. So really and truly the only reason the temp is good is because it is fast with great ammo, and easy to make the shot. If you get tied up in a turn fight with a temp, you will most likely get out maneuvered. You don't fight with the tempest with slash attack, you fight it with BnZ. You don't fly a p51 with slash attack, you use BnZ. The 109 is a not a BnZer, you use the slash attack for most effectiveness. The K4 may show better lines on a chart but that doesn't mean it can fly better than the Spit8. The advantage of the spit8s speed, zoom climb, and turn rate, make it very dangerous in any type of fight. BTW the spit is also a slash attack plane, not a BnZer. So you have to learn the styles to be generally successful in each plane. The charts really don't mean anything in a furball or 1v1 fight unless you are measuring a FM2 compared to a 190D. Obviously you have to fly both those planes differently in order to be successful.

What you fail to realize is that faster planes that don't turn well, like the 190D, are meant to be able to escape fights by using the speed advantage. Speed is so important in Air combat for these types of planes. That is why I hate fighting them in the MA. They just run away and are able to escape tough situations.

[M1A1]

Just to be clear, I have never stated the 51 is the best.There are far better planes. As for running people in this game that point that out have no real conception of fights or combat. I treat combat in the game as I did when I was in a combat zone. I give very little yield to my opponents but only when it is to my advantage. If it turns or I am caught with my pants down I will run, training is a hard thing to just turn off. There is nothing wrong ever with withdrawing from a fight you can't win. I have been called this and that by folks whom 90% of would have peed their pants the first time they heard a bullet go whizzing inches past their heads. I find it funny. This is a game yes but it is one I take seriously for certain things and living to land my plane is one. You may not see it that way and you are not wrong if landing is not important to you, I see nothing wrong with how most folks play this game as it is their 15 bucks so I have no right to judge them.
In judging aircraft the ability to get the pilot out of trouble is just as important as any other factor regardless of how the fight is conducted.
I do truly want to thank you gentlemen on a side note for engaging in an intelligent conversation though. It seems to many times on the boards here it gets stupid or so heated as to sink to insults and the like. I like when I can listen to others thoughts and views as it helps me learn more and new things that I may not have a chance to do at a later time.

[Skyyr]

There's way too many armchair tacticians talking about ACM without the requirement to prove its validity. My solid belief is that when two pilots have contradicting points of view regarding ACM, they should go to the DA and duel it out, using the planes and tactics relevant to their argument. The loser would have to concede to the other's point.