Author Topic: The remarkable airplane that failed.  (Read 4834 times)

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #135 on: May 07, 2015, 09:13:46 PM »
criticaluncertainties.com ??   Any other dodgy websites you want to quote?  :rofl


To counter: How about Boeing's, um, "open door policy"? A problem they had known for years.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 09:16:24 PM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline Toad

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #136 on: May 07, 2015, 09:44:28 PM »
You wouldn't know the truth if your side stick controller slapped you upside the head.

Airbus has some clear design flaws. If you really research AF447, you'd recognize 6-7.

Those pilots screwed up. Period. But that isn't the whole story and it isn't the whole accident chain.

Break one link…just one…and that accident never happens. Thales pitots. Sidesticks with no feedback. Throttles that don't move when the computer controls them (auto thrust), stall warning that stops at low airspeed and then begins again when airspeed increases, no AOA display in the cockpit….

Now…stick your fingers back in your ears and commence the la-la-la-la-la
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Offline Ripsnort

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #137 on: May 07, 2015, 10:12:45 PM »
Lol toad (lalala)

Offline Ripsnort

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #138 on: May 07, 2015, 10:17:13 PM »
Don't talk to me about fanboyism Mr. "Friends don't let friends fly Airbus." I have no stake in either company. They're both megacorps with a history of shady lobbying and their greedy hands in the taxpayers pockets. I've been a reluctant advocate for Airbus in this thread because you're simply wrong and I prefer the truth.
toad has prvoided facts and data...you've provided your ego that can't admit that your wrong. I'll take a real pilots opinion that flew neither of those planes but flew commercially over your opinion any day

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #139 on: May 07, 2015, 11:02:37 PM »
Toad, this is the difference between your uninformed opinions and the truth:

Want to talk Thales pitot tubes? The ones that Airbus KNEW were causing problems more than a year before AF447?
Thales pitots.

Airbus did not choose the Thales pitot tubes on AF 447. They were part of a later government airworthiness directive. In 2007, two years before the accident Airbus recommended that the Thales pitots be replaced. Airbus does not decide when or where Air France repairs its aircraft. The A330 flying AF447 was scheduled to have its pitots replaced when it returned to Paris. It only got half way there.

"When it was introduced in 1994, the Airbus A330 was equipped with pitot tubes, part number 0851GR, manufactured by Goodrich Sensors and Integrated Systems. A 2001 Airworthiness Directive required these to be replaced with either a later Goodrich design, part number 0851HL, or with pitot tubes made by Thales, part number C16195AA. Air France chose to equip its fleet with the Thales pitot tubes. In September 2007, Airbus recommended that Thales C16195AA pitot tubes should be replaced by Thales model C16195BA to address the problem of water ingress that had been observed. Since it was not an Airworthiness Directive, the guidelines allow the operator to apply the recommendations at its discretion. Air France implemented the change on its A320 fleet where the incidents of water ingress were observed and decided to do so in its A330/340 fleet only when failures started to occur in May 2008.

After discussing these issues with the manufacturer, Air France sought a means of reducing these incidents, and Airbus indicated that the new pitot probe designed for the A320 was not designed to prevent cruise level ice-over. In 2009, tests suggested that the new probe could improve its reliability, prompting Air France to accelerate the replacement program, which started on 29 May. F-GZCP was scheduled to have its pitot tubes replaced as soon as it returned to Paris. By 17 June 2009, Air France had replaced all pitot probes on its A330 type aircraft."


Sidesticks with no feedback.

Airbus sidesticks have no feedback because they normally do not control the control surfaces, just command the flight computer. Airbus opted for an aural warning system to prevent dual input.


Throttles that don't move when the computer controls them (auto thrust)

Same as with the stick. The throttles do not normally control the engines. They command a setting to the computer, a climb setting for example. The computer controls the engines to best achieve that. Only when the computer reverts to alternate law or direct law does the throttle actually command the engines directly. On AF447 the computer had no control of the engines. They were in the direct control of the pilots.


stall warning that stops at low airspeed and then begins again when airspeed increases

The pilots had pushed the aircraft so far out of its envelope that the AOA sensors were reporting values beyond what was accepted as valid. The computer (correctly) considered the data unreliable and shut the stall warning off. Later when the pitots had cleared of ice and the AOA reported valid data the computer (correctly) determined that the aircraft was indeed in a stall after all and sounded the warning. The flight computer (correctly) shuts down alarms if it deems the data it receives is unreliable to avoid confusing the pilots with conflicting alarms like on Aeroperu Flight 603 (B757 with its static ports blocked).


no AOA display in the cockpit….

I know of only two airlines who fly Boeings with AOA displays in the cockpit and they're customer custom fittings. It is not a normal option from Boeing (or anyone). Perhaps this has changed in recent years.


Now…stick your fingers back in your ears and commence the la-la-la-la-la

No need. You're la-laing loud enough for both of us.  :aok


toad has prvoided facts and data...you've provided your ego that can't admit that your wrong. I'll take a real pilots opinion that flew neither of those planes but flew commercially over your opinion any day

So here we have a Boeing fanboy and a Boeing employee... In other words objectivity and impartiality manifest!  :rofl
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 11:06:01 PM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #140 on: May 08, 2015, 12:10:01 AM »
And in other news today:

Quote
US LEGACY CARRIERS RATTLED AS EMIRATES POSTS 27TH CONSECUTIVE YEAR PROFITS

The 1.5 billion US Dollars profit posted by the Emirates Group, incidentally the second highest in the company’s history, has reaffirmed the airlines’ strategy of being a global connector of people, operating an exclusively wide body aircraft fleet and being the largest operator of the world’s biggest passenger aircraft, the Airbus A380.

https://wolfganghthome.wordpress.com/2015/05/08/more-headaches-for-us-legacy-carriers-as-leading-gulf-airline-records-second-highest-profits-ever/
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #141 on: May 08, 2015, 06:55:01 AM »



Irrelevant.   The system should be designed so that the left seater overrides the right.   That's how it is done by everyone else in many areas, from steering to coms.

Airbus control law is garbage.  Always has been. 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 06:57:41 AM by Vraciu »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #142 on: May 08, 2015, 06:56:05 AM »
Should/Woulda/Coulda….228 dead.

You're such a 'Bus fanboy that you can't countenance that there are some stupid design aspects to the 'Bus.

Yeah…the pilots screwed the pooch, big time.

Here's the part your ego just can't accept: Airbus engineering was also significant causal factor in the accident chain.

Want to talk Thales pitot tubes? The ones that Airbus KNEW were causing problems more than a year before AF447?
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #143 on: May 08, 2015, 08:23:20 AM »
Also Toad is right.  I can't think of a single glass cockpit airplane that doesn't have an AOA indicator or PLI.  That is standard, basic stuff.  Hell even the CE-650 with pure analog instruments had the former. 
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Offline Ripsnort

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #144 on: May 08, 2015, 09:05:33 AM »
And in other news today:

US LEGACY CARRIERS RATTLED AS EMIRATES POSTS 27TH CONSECUTIVE YEAR PROFITS

The 1.5 billion US Dollars profit posted by the Emirates Group, incidentally the second highest in the company’s history, has reaffirmed the airlines’ strategy of being a global connector of people, operating an exclusively wide body aircraft fleet and being the largest operator of the world’s biggest passenger aircraft, the Airbus A380.

"The largest order in 2014 for the 777 came from Emirates, with 150 of the 777X."

 :aok

Boeing stock investment has allowed me to pull the retirement trigger anytime after I turn 55 in June this year. :) But I'll probably stay to 59 1/2 or until they force me out (I'm a pensioned-employee, a dying breed this day and age as new hires get no pensions)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 09:08:12 AM by Ripsnort »

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #145 on: May 08, 2015, 12:05:16 PM »
The funny thing is I never meant this thread to turn into a AB vs Boeing thing, tho I knew some fool would probably do so anyway. My thesis was the age of 4 engined passenger planes is over, and that includes the 747. But AB invested heavily in the A380 and doing so was a massive fail no matter how many giddy promo vid's you post.

The 787 was never meant to replace anything. Its a completely new design that brings passenger comfort, range, profitability, more environmentally friendly, all together in a 2 engine package. The 777, A340, and A330, were all the "replacement planes". All designed to take seats away from the 747. The 777 and 330's are the big planes I see most often on the runways. With the 330 neo and 350 coming off-line AB will have solid footing the the 2 engine wide body market. Maybe even more so then Boeing. The neo is positioned to take a lot of market share in the high traffic continental routes of 4,000 nm or so because it will be much cheaper to buy then the 350 or 787 and no airline is going to pay that kind of money for a 3,000 nm flight.

Like I said "$$ per seat per mile". Its all that matters. The 2 engined wide bodys will only get better and better, more efficient and profitable with each new design. The A380 is a doomed design, tho I myself think its a remarkable air craft.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #146 on: May 08, 2015, 01:52:29 PM »

Irrelevant.   The system should be designed so that the left seater overrides the right.   That's how it is done by everyone else in many areas, from steering to coms.

Airbus control law is garbage.  Always has been.

So if the captain's stick malfunctions and constantly inputs full nose down... That's exactly why there's a priority button on the stick.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #147 on: May 08, 2015, 01:53:50 PM »
"The largest order in 2014 for the 777 came from Emirates, with 150 of the 777X."

 :aok

Boeing stock investment has allowed me to pull the retirement trigger anytime after I turn 55 in June this year. :) But I'll probably stay to 59 1/2 or until they force me out (I'm a pensioned-employee, a dying breed this day and age as new hires get no pensions)

That's a very nice investment. :)
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #148 on: May 08, 2015, 02:13:16 PM »
The 787 is no ones answer to the A330 but a completely new design with revolutionary features that was meant to replace other Boeing airplanes.

The 787 was never meant to replace anything. Its a completely new design...

Please make up your mind.


The neo is positioned to take a lot of market share in the high traffic continental routes of 4,000 nm or so because it will be much cheaper to buy then the 350 or 787 and no airline is going to pay that kind of money for a 3,000 nm flight.

The old A330-200 has a 7,200 nm range. The neo will have close to or more than 8,000 nm range. It will compete with the 787 on a lot more routes. The A350 is the replacement for the A330 (and A340). Airbus' initial A350 proposal was just what is now the A330neo, but later decided new materials were necessary as well.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #149 on: May 08, 2015, 02:19:10 PM »
Also Toad is right.  I can't think of a single glass cockpit airplane that doesn't have an AOA indicator or PLI.  That is standard, basic stuff.  Hell even the CE-650 with pure analog instruments had the former.

Airbus used to offer an analogue AoA display as an option, but has in recent years (perhaps after AF447) incorporated it into the standard flight instrumentation.


"Airbus takes the AoA information along with the rest of the air data, sends it to the Flight Augmentation Computers which then compute and display relevant information on the PFD speed tape:



Green Dot (max l/d),
Vls (lowest selectable speed w/ autopilot),
Alpha Prot (below which sidestick requests an AoA, bank limited to 45, speed brakes retract, a/p disconnects, pitch up trim inhibited),
Alpha Max (cannot be exceeded in normal law)

Additionally the Alpha Floor function utilizes AoA and other parameters to determine when to apply TOGA power to extract the aircraft from a dire low energy situation.

Airbus has recently developed the Back Up Speed Scale, which in the event of a triple air data failure replaces the airspeed tape on the PFD with an AoA scale of a conventional design. Keep it in the green range, respect the chevrons."
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 02:28:33 PM by PR3D4TOR »
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