The remarkable airplane that failed.

[PR3D4TOR]

Clearly.

There is so much I want to say in this thread since I am directly connected to the 787 program managing office but I cannot until I retire...otherwise I could end up in deep do do regarding proprietary and limited only information I would have to disclose to give facts, data and MY opinion.

[Ripsnort]

You work for Boeing?

Yes, since 1979.

[Vraciu]

Pilots who have flown both tend to disagree with you on that Toad. Like these gentlemen over at airliners.net:

YMMV of course and I'm sure there are pilots who prefer the Boeings.

Ask the 'Bus drivers who pancaked their 330 into the Atlantic.   Their sidestick logic is absolute crap. 

I have no dog in this fight.  I will take Embraer over anyone, including Boeing and Gulfstream.  No contest.

[PR3D4TOR]

Already replied to that argument Vraciu. Try to keep up.


In other news today:

"Emirates annual profit rises 40 per cent..."

http://www.thenational.ae/business/aviation/emirates-annual-profit-rises-40-per-cent-to-dh46bn

[Vraciu]

Already replied to that argument Vraciu. Try to keep up.


In other news today:

"Emirates annual profit rises 40 per cent..."

http://www.thenational.ae/business/aviation/emirates-annual-profit-rises-40-per-cent-to-dh46bn

There is no reply. YOU keep up. The logic is flawed.  It is garbage.

[PR3D4TOR]

Both pilots should never have their hands on the stick at the same time. One pilot has command, or the other, not both. That crew made so many insane mistakes it boggles the mind.

[Ripsnort]

"Both pilots had their hands the on stick....."


I got it!
NO I GOT IT...
NO! I got it!
Let go you, I blow my nose at you, you silly king! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smells of elderberries!
No you let go! If you do not agree to my commands than I shall....

JESUS CHRIST!

{Splat}

[PR3D4TOR]

And in your Monty Pythonesque example Ripsnort, the result would be exactly the same in a Boeing.

[Toad]

Both pilots should never have their hands on the stick at the same time.

This is not the time for a dissertation on the Airbus flight-control system, which is criticized by Boeing, but to the extent that it embodies a mistake in design, it is that the pilot’s and co-pilot’s side-sticks are not linked and do not move in unison. This means that when the Pilot Flying deflects his stick, the other stick remains stationary, in the neutral position. If both pilots deflect their sticks at the same time, a DUAL INPUT warning sounds, and the airplane responds by splitting the difference. To keep this from causing a problem in the case of a side-stick jam, each stick has a priority button that cuts out the other one and allows for full control. The arrangement relies on clear communication and good teamwork to function as intended. Indeed, it represents an extreme case of empowering the co-pilot and accepting C.R.M. into a design. More immediately, the lack of linkage did not allow Robert to feel Bonin’s flailing.
[/b]
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-flight-447-crash

Of course if the controls had been engineered to actually HAVE FEEDBACK they would have KNOWN they were both on the stick. As it was….

Like I said…Gulfstream went with sidesticks in the new G500/600. Of course, since they're not French, they were smart enough to incorporate stick feedback.

[PR3D4TOR]

Robert should have responded to the dual input warning telling him both pilots were on the stick, and should have pressed his priority control button giving him sole control of the aircraft.

[PR3D4TOR]

Here, at time index 4:47 there's a dual input warning. You'd have to be retarded to not understand it.

[PR3D4TOR]

From AF447 CVR transcript:


Pilot: Hey you. ... You're in... Get the wings horizontal.
Robert: Get the wings horizontal.
Bonin: That's what I'm trying to do.
Pilot: Get the wings horizontal.
Bonin: I'm at the limit ... with the roll.
Synthetic voice Dual input.
Pilot: The rudder bar. ... Wings horizontal... go... gently, gently. ... Hey er...
Robert: We lost it all at [expletive] left. ... I've got nothing there.
Pilot:(Eh). ... What do you have there? ... No wait.
Bonin: We're there, we're there, we're passing level one hundred.
Robert: Wait, me, I have, I have the controls eh?
Bonin: What is... how come we're continuing to go right down now?
Robert: Try to find what you can do with your controls up there.. .. The primaries and so on.
Pilot:([Expletive] do anything.) It (won't do) anything.
Bonin: [Expletive] at level one hundred. ... Nine thousand feet.
Pilot: Careful with the rudder bar there.
Robert: Climb climb climb climb.
Bonin: But I've been at maxi nose-up for a while.
Synthetic voice Dual input.
Pilot: No no no don't climb.
Robert: So go down.
Synthetic voice Dual input.
Robert: So give me the controls, the controls to me, controls to me.
Bonin: Go ahead you have the controls, we are still in TOGA eh?
Pilot: (So wait) AP OFF.
Synthetic voice Stall. Stall. Stall. Stall.
Bonin: (Gentlemen.)
Synthetic voice Dual input.
Pilot: Watch out you're pitching up there.
Robert: I'm pitching up.
Pilot: You're pitching up.
Robert: I'm pitching up.
Bonin: Well we need to we are at four thousand feet.
Pilot: You're pitching up.

[Toad]

Should/Woulda/Coulda….228 dead.

You're such a 'Bus fanboy that you can't countenance that there are some stupid design aspects to the 'Bus.

Yeah…the pilots screwed the pooch, big time.

Here's the part your ego just can't accept: Airbus engineering was also significant causal factor in the accident chain.

Want to talk Thales pitot tubes? The ones that Airbus KNEW were causing problems more than a year before AF447?

[Toad]

For AF447 the loss of air data, poor salience of the auto-thrust disconnect and elevator trim, lack of differentiation between stall approach versus stalled state in aural warnings, stall warnings indication loss and elevator trimming nose up (2) could all be seen as design faults that undercut crew actions and added uncertainty to their decision making.

http://criticaluncertainties.com/2011/06/23/a-thing-called-hindsight-bias-and-af447/

[PR3D4TOR]

Don't talk to me about fanboyism Mr. "Friends don't let friends fly Airbus." I have no stake in either company. They're both megacorps with a history of shady lobbying and their greedy hands in the taxpayers pockets. I've been a reluctant advocate for Airbus in this thread because you're simply wrong and I prefer the truth.