Author Topic: Air Force vs Navy Method  (Read 3109 times)

Offline earl1937

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2290
Air Force vs Navy Method
« on: April 15, 2015, 05:47:57 AM »
 :airplane: I I recall correctly, and that is questionable I know, but as I recall, there is a difference in the way Navy pilots and Air Force pilots are taught to recover from unusual attitudes, when flying IFR or basic instrument flight!
Using all the known flight instruments as reference, how would you recover any aircraft in Aces High, using only the flight instruments, instead of looking outside the aircraft for visual reference?
What would you do first?
Use vertical speed to stop decent or reduce power, or level wings, or center the "ball", use the altimeter to start a climb, use the directional gyo to adjust your heading, increase the RPM of the engine, shut the engine down, lower landing gear?
Please list in order what you would do first, second, third, fourth!
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline 715

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1835
Re: Air Force vs Navy Method
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2015, 12:50:11 PM »
I first try to get the sky up and the ground down, which I always do by looking out the cockpit as we never have clouds.  But if we did, I'd use the little floaty ball horizon thingy.  Then I'd check to see if the sky is spinning and if so I'd cut power, push forward on the stick, and hit full opposite rudder.  If I couldn't see outside I guess the heading gyro would tell me?  Then I'd power up and look at airspeed and level out when it got reasonable.

Offline Draggon

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 101
      • vmf214blacksheep.webs.com
Re: Air Force vs Navy Method
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2015, 01:15:10 PM »
By use of the IFR- Instrument flight rules, you first use your artificial horizon gauge to make sure you were right side up, then you use your Altimeter for your altitude. You would need to check these simultaneously as you tried to recover.

Draggon Out:  :bolt:
CO VMF214 "BLACK SHEEP" Commanding
"Actually however the object isn't to bail out of your ship, but to make the other fellow bail out of his''

Offline Skyyr

  • persona non grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
Re: Air Force vs Navy Method
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2015, 01:26:00 PM »
1. Wings level, referencing attitude indicator
2. Nose to the horizon, referencing attitude indicator
3. Adding or backing off power as appropriate, referencing the ASI

(note that all 3 of these are usually done virtually simultaneously, they're simply memorized in that flow order)

4. Reference other instruments to confirm coordinated flight, situational awareness, and positioning.

Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - 296

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 30-11

KOTH Wins: 6, Egos Broken: 1000+

Mmmmm... tears.

Offline Citabria

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5149
Re: Air Force vs Navy Method
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2015, 06:46:25 PM »
gyros would be unreliable if they were not caged before doing anything acrobatic as they would most likely tumble.

if your flying on instruments and get in a situation where you are in an extreme unusual attitude you have already made a series of errors or in the case of combat been hit by enemy fire or decided to take extreme evasive action.

modern gyros seem to right themselves after a few minutes and the amount of error in their readings can vary a little or a lot.

the original question about instrument flying differences between USAAF and Navy flight training practices would be a hard one to answer.

the only guess i could hazard is that in actual conditions of instrument flight in combat beyond the training setting would be this...

if your in a situation where your aircraft is in an unusual position with no outside visual references it would be a good thing to know which of your instrument systems are compromised by this unusual position and which might be compromised by battle damage if taking fire. then get the plane in a position in which you are certain of its attitude and ability to stay in flight and then get out of danger if possible then out of instrument conditions as soon as possible and attempt to return to base.

Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9485
Re: Air Force vs Navy Method
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2015, 08:42:17 PM »
(note that all 3 of these are usually done virtually simultaneously, they're simply memorized in that flow order)


I think throttle comes before wings.  Particularly if you're in a spin, speed picks up very quickly.

If the gyros have gone haywire, probably the liquid compass is the only instrument that will tell you which way you're rotating (not that it will be terribly accurate).

- oldman

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Air Force vs Navy Method
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2015, 08:16:01 AM »
Well, if a gyro is uncaged and free it will always show the rotation right regardless of whether the markings on the ball is pointing the right direction or not (having been tumbled by previous maneuvers). You may not be able to trust it to show you where your nose and wings are pointing, but it will show you the direction of rotation (if it has stopped tumbling...).
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 08:18:45 AM by PR3D4TOR »
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline earl1937

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2290
Re: Air Force vs Navy Method
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2015, 10:51:04 AM »
gyros would be unreliable if they were not caged before doing anything acrobatic as they would most likely tumble.

if your flying on instruments and get in a situation where you are in an extreme unusual attitude you have already made a series of errors or in the case of combat been hit by enemy fire or decided to take extreme evasive action.

modern gyros seem to right themselves after a few minutes and the amount of error in their readings can vary a little or a lot.

the original question about instrument flying differences between USAAF and Navy flight training practices would be a hard one to answer.

the only guess i could hazard is that in actual conditions of instrument flight in combat beyond the training setting would be this...

if your in a situation where your aircraft is in an unusual position with no outside visual references it would be a good thing to know which of your instrument systems are compromised by this unusual position and which might be compromised by battle damage if taking fire. then get the plane in a position in which you are certain of its attitude and ability to stay in flight and then get out of danger if possible then out of instrument conditions as soon as possible and attempt to return to base.
:airplane: Pretty good answer and lets develop it a little further in the interest of safety

First thing you have to realize is this: there are few instruments that you can depend on in recovering from unusal attitudes, namely, needle and ball, altimeter, airspeed. That is three that you can always depend on to work correctly. The vertical speed indicator is useless in attitude recovery, it is a TREND instrument only and has a lot of lag before it will show any reliable information.

Step `1, power off all the way, you don't want the aircraft accelerating any faster than it already is, chances are the aircraft if already beginning to descend.

Step 2, get the wings level relative to the ground, no matter if aircraft is pointing down or not. You do this by centering the needle on the turn and bank indicator.

Step 3- center the ball. of course you want to do step 2 and 3 at the same time, now the aircraft will be in coornated
fight confg!

Step 4- Stop the loss of altitude!!  Do this slowly, by watching the altimeter and monitoring the airspeed indicator!

If you perform these steps timely and smoothly, you will recover the aircraft and regain control for continuation of the flight.

The pilot, when under going instrument flight training, should have mastered unusual attitude recovery techques
while ongoing his basic instrument control training.

What I always practice was this: no matter what the lesson plan was for that particular lesson, I always ended it with at least 5 minutes of unusual attitude recovery practice. If the student pilot has been taught and developed a solid instrument "scan", he/she will have no problem with this part of their training!

Last, but not least, someone mentioned the Kennedy accident! Everyone who flys as pilot in command should know what their personal limitations are as a pilot and if they don't, they are looking for place to have an accident!
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24760
Re: Air Force vs Navy Method
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2015, 11:53:25 AM »
Naval aviator. Navy pilot? No gottie.

Offline DaveBB

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1356
Re: Air Force vs Navy Method
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2015, 05:01:05 PM »
There was an F-15 pilot who ruined a brand new F-15 because he got the sky and ocean confused (they were very similar in color).  He ended up pulling 15g's or so recovering.  Even pulled the tape off the HUD recorder during the maneuver.

Legend has it, he flies trainers and plays an online WW2 air combat sim now.
Currently ignoring Vraciu as he is a whoopeeed retard.

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24760
Re: Air Force vs Navy Method
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2015, 05:12:30 PM »
There was an F-15 pilot who ruined a brand new F-15 because he got the sky and ocean confused (they were very similar in color).  He ended up pulling 15g's or so recovering.  Even pulled the tape off the HUD recorder during the maneuver.

Legend has it, he flies trainers and plays an online WW2 air combat sim now.

15Gs? Didn't know Voss still played.

Offline DaveBB

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1356
Re: Air Force vs Navy Method
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2015, 05:14:55 PM »
Quote
The next short clip shows the cockpit/HUD view From an F-15 that the pilot became spatially disoriented. If I remember correctly it was broad daylight in clear visibility, a mitigating factor is the color of the sky and seas that day were very similar.

F-15 Eagle Spatial Disorientation: World Record G: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-adcRA3u8Q

The fact the F-15 held together and was able to land safely is a testament of its durability. I can't remember exactly but it sustained like 15-20 Gs for about 2-3 seconds. For a fraction of a second it pulled something like 30-40 Gs. It held together but the wing skin had crinkled (technical term j/k) because the airframe was bent so badly. Unfortunately I have no external views. It pulled so many Gs that the tape pulled off the recorder head and lost sync for a bit, so the tape misses the highest G.
Currently ignoring Vraciu as he is a whoopeeed retard.

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24760
Re: Air Force vs Navy Method
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2015, 05:55:43 PM »
Saints preserve!

Offline RedAgony

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: Air Force vs Navy Method
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2015, 06:08:15 PM »
Well, as an army guy I'm not sure about the way the other branches teach it, but for a Battalion wide training session I had to give a class on spatial disorientation.  The document I'm about to show you is part of the references I used (I can't include the .ppt because of it's security level)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OOL01pDAPmZI6Lm4849Be49yBJfbGWFikaVusyZSqFI/edit?usp=sharing




Also, being from the Army, I guess it's assumed that we are flying at lower altitudes than the fixed wing guys-- that's why power reduction or increase isn't mentioned. 

1st  Wings Level then
2nd  Use IVSI to establish a climb

afterwards adjust collective and trim.  TRUST YOUR INSTRUMENTS!

If you are in a battle damaged aircraft then you have just discovered the reason why a Backup Artificial Horizon Indicator is REQUIRED to be installed AND operational prior to all flights!   :aok
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 06:15:34 PM by RedAgony »
This song came on, and I was invincible:

https://youtu.be/T3yPyc5ZdNs

Offline Skyyr

  • persona non grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
Re: Air Force vs Navy Method
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2015, 08:04:59 PM »
Well, as an army guy I'm not sure about the way the other branches teach it, but for a Battalion wide training session I had to give a class on spatial disorientation.  The document I'm about to show you is part of the references I used (I can't include the .ppt because of it's security level)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OOL01pDAPmZI6Lm4849Be49yBJfbGWFikaVusyZSqFI/edit?usp=sharing




Also, being from the Army, I guess it's assumed that we are flying at lower altitudes than the fixed wing guys-- that's why power reduction or increase isn't mentioned. 

1st  Wings Level then
2nd  Use IVSI to establish a climb

afterwards adjust collective and trim.  TRUST YOUR INSTRUMENTS!

If you are in a battle damaged aircraft then you have just discovered the reason why a Backup Artificial Horizon Indicator is REQUIRED to be installed AND operational prior to all flights!   :aok

Also to add, if you're nose-high and stalling/about to stall in an unusual attitude, the last thing you want to do is pull back power before establishing where you're at the power/climb curve. It's a great way to go into a spin (for fixed wing), or at the least cause a secondary stall.
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - 296

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 30-11

KOTH Wins: 6, Egos Broken: 1000+

Mmmmm... tears.