Spin Training

[earl1937]

  I am not up to date, so to speak, on what the FAA is now requiring in so far as how much training one has to have to have a private license, so I ask this question with some hesitation!
Should someone who aspires to be a private pilot and be licensed to carry people around with him in a airplane, be required to under go aircraft spin recovery methods?
I used to get chastised for making a private pilot applicant to demonstrate spin recovery on a exam ride. The FAA at that time did not require it on a private pilot exam, but I always thought it important in the sense of safety for the applicant and anyone who might ride with him.

[Mar]

Next time trick the guy who chastised you into riding with you and take him for a "spin".

Honestly, being chastised for asking a pilot if he knows how to fly...

[cpxxx]

I think the argument was that most stall spin accidents occurred during spin training so by getting rid of the requirement the incidence of spin accidents was reduced.

This of course had the consequent effect that for many pilots their first spin was also their last.

But of course avoiding getting into a situation which leads to a spin should be emphasised. But recovering from a spin can't be taught if you never experienced one.

The problem of course is that most spins happen at too low an altitude for recovery. I lost two friends a couple of years ago when an engine failure (fuel) led to a stall which became a spin at about 300 feet. One was an Instructor who obviously should have known better. Many years ago I lost another friend in the same scenario. At low level once you enter a spin it's all over.

So there are two sides to the argument.

Many pilots are scared of spins never having experienced one. Not me. I remember once with an American friend trying to find the absolute ceiling of a Cessna 150 somewhere over Arkansas, it's 12000 feet or so we found. Naturally the best way to descend after that was to spin it down to 4000 feet. Great fun so we did it again only this time a botched recovery found us spinning inverted. I always remember the matter of fact comment from Andy beside me. 'It seems we're inverted' he said proving that Americans can do stiff upper lip too! 

[Oldman731]

But recovering from a spin can't be taught if you never experienced one.

True.  I, for one, was surprised, to the point of being shocked, at how much the nose drops, and how quickly the speed builds up, in a spin.  Having someone tell me that would not have prepared me for it.

- oldman

[Zimme83]

At least on this part of the pond spin training is a part of aerobatic licence training. A PPL-pilot does not do any spin recovery training. Prob because most GA aircraft are not certified for spin training. And it prob wise because the spin training would prob kill more people than the unintended spins. (Ex the "traumahawk")

Private pilot training is more focused on learning the pilots to avoid getting in a spin. Most fatal accident with spin involved are btw those were a pilot stall on final turn and spin into ground. In those cases there are no time to recover no matter if u are trained or not. U simply have to avioid a stall at low level.

[Golfer]

If a DE ever tried/tries to make a student of mine do a spin on a checkride they are going to have problems.

That's not on the PTS. Nor is it a required task.

Anyone I ever signed off for a checkride received spin training. Usually in a 152 Aerobat for a demonstration and then an actual spin and accelerated cross control stalls but the 172s worked okay as well.

But inventing your own stuff to throw on a checkride as a jeopardy item?  What task exactly would you have busted them on?

The DE on my initial multi engine checkride asked if I was comfortable (I said yes) demonstrated steep turns into and away from the failed engine.  It was nice to see.  But it wasn't part of the checkride.

[earl1937]

If a DE ever tried/tries to make a student of mine do a spin on a checkride they are going to have problems.

That's not on the PTS. Nor is it a required task.

Anyone I ever signed off for a checkride received spin training. Usually in a 152 Aerobat for a demonstration and then an actual spin and accelerated cross control stalls but the 172s worked okay as well.

But inventing your own stuff to throw on a checkride as a jeopardy item?  What task exactly would you have busted them on?

The DE on my initial multi engine checkride asked if I was comfortable (I said yes) demonstrated steep turns into and away from the failed engine.  It was nice to see.  But it wasn't part of the checkride.

I should have included in the post that I always asked the student pilot if he would mind demonstrating spin recovery! If he did refuse, then if he passed all the required demonstrations of aircraft control, I would sign him off, but would recommend to his instructor to provide spin training. If he, the instructor, did provide the further training, a note was included in his record that he did in fact provide the training.
The problem at the time was a "legal" problem, in so far as an instructor being "sued" for not providing that training, if a spin  was involved in an accident.
the whole point of teaching spin recovery is to teach the pilot how to avoid the spin to begin with! If he/she had never done one, how would they be expected to successfully recover from one, should one occur?
To require a student to demonstrate all the different ways to get into a spin would require to much additional training, added expense and etc!
the only one I ever ask anyone to do, was to simulate a turn to final with full flaps, which is the most likely to end up in a fatal accident. I was not trying to train a aerobatic pilot, just someone who had the fundamental knowledge of recognizing flight attitudes which could produce a spin.
Glad to see that you do provide some spin recovery training, that's kinda like a doctor receiving CPR training!

[Shamus]

Back in the late 70's when I got my training spins were frowned upon by the school operator, claimed something about tumbling the gyros. My instructor was an old grizzled B-17 pilot who thought it was bs and said even if it were true I was going to get that training and I did in all kinds of attitudes and many different aircraft.

[puller]

Ok, now I want to hear some stories of recovering from spins and the pucker factor that goes along with them...

[earl1937]

Ok, now I want to hear some stories of recovering from spins and the pucker factor that goes along with them...

All aircraft, in the light single engine class, have to demonstrate spin recovery during the certification phase of a permit from the FAA to build the thing.
Most aircraft will recover themselves if you just turn the controls loose! Most people when I asked the question like this: "if in a left turn, with full flaps, and the aircraft stalls, which way will it turn first"?
I will just leave the answer blank, to see how many can get that right!
The only aircraft which I flew which was difficult to recover from a spin was a T-6 and a "Stearman PT-17! both aircraft required the same action, full forward on stick, applying opposite rudder to the direction of the spin. If you have had the proper stall recovery methods taught you, its almost an instinctive move to recover from one.

[eagl]

Most people when I asked the question like this: "if in a left turn, with full flaps, and the aircraft stalls, which way will it turn first"?
I will just leave the answer blank, to see how many can get that right!

The answer is that it depends.  It depends on aircraft type, power on or power off, if there is any yaw present, which direction any yaw is in (ie. slipping or skidding turn), and if there is any aileron input during the stall.

I taught spin training in both the T-37 and T-6, and have probably done a couple thousand spins.  My record in one flight in the T-37 was 32 spins but I was solo, just getting a better feel for both normal and abnormal spins and spin entries.  Those "which direction will it go" questions bug me because its a safe bet that I could take a variety of aircraft and prove you wrong, depending on exactly how I flew the stall/spin entry.

My answer to that question is "Assuming the aircraft is not bent beyond manufacturer's original specifications, it could go left, right, or not spin at all depending on if there is any yaw, any uncompensated torque/p-factor, or any significant aileron deflection at the time of the stall."  And I can prove my answer in flight, because that's something I used to do for a living.  9 years and some 1600ish hours teaching primary flight training in high performance aircraft.

The T-6 had a prohibition against "inverted stalls".  What they meant to prohibit was "negative-G stalls".  I must have broken that prohibition or watched students break that prohibition a hundred times when a student added too much back stick pressure at the top of a loop and put the plane into a mild wings-level inverted positive-G stall.  Since it was positive G (hence positive angle of attack on the wing), nothing different happened than if the student had made the same control inputs but upright instead of inverted.  Aircraft attitude has little to do with stall and spin entry modes except for certain specific conditions where an exaggerated nose-high attitude leads to the airspeed (and hence aircraft energy) bleeding off fast enough to let the plane transition from one spin mode to another before the spin develops.  But that is a very specific situation, and it is of course one I can also demonstrate in the aircraft

[Mace2004]

Stick full forward, neutral lateral, lock your harness
Rudder opposite turn needle

If no recovery:
Stick into turn needle
If engine stalls, both throttles smoothly to idle

Recovery indicated:
Controls neutralize
Recover at 17 units AOA, thrust as required

If flat spin is verified by flat attitude, increasing yaw rate, increasing eyeball–out g, and lack of pitch and roll rates:
Eject (RIO command eject)

Hard to forget the boldface procedures when you covered them a few hundred times before flights.  I'm with earl, proper spin training should be an essential part of GA.  If it's done properly at altitude in a certified, maintained, and inspected plane it's a perfectly safe maneuver.  I mention the maintenance and inspection because spins can put a lot of stress on an aircraft so they need to be checked out more frequently.  At Pax River the T-2 was a somewhat boring aircraft to be assigned but certified for spins so we'd activate the spin area and spend the flight doing spins.  Upright, inverted, Lomcovaks.  Spins build a tremendous amount of confidence and it becomes second nature to identify where the edge is.

[cpxxx]

Ok, now I want to hear some stories of recovering from spins and the pucker factor that goes along with them...

Some of the best advice I heard was to scream 'Omigod I'm going to die, release the controls and cover your eyes. The aircraft recovers itself, assuming you have the altitude. Otherwise you die.

My best story, although I'm not sure if it's true involves the Gippsland Airvan in which I have nearly a thousand hours and is difficult to spin. Being a bit of a teddy bear of an aeroplane. Apparently it all went wrong for the test pilot and he bailed. But he found himself falling towards the front of the aircraft and actually passed through the arc of the propeller which was turning slowly luckily. I get the shivers thinking of it.

Another story involved a military pilot in a Vampire trainer. Having got into a irrecoverable spin. The Instructor told the student to eject, which he did. The change in airflow caused the jet to recover from the spin and the Instructor flew home, cabriolet as it were. Meanwhile the student found himself alone in the middle of nowhere thinking his Instructor was dead. He knocked on a peasants cottage for help but the man insisted on payment for bringing him to civilisation on his cart and horse.

[earl1937]

The answer is that it depends.  It depends on aircraft type, power on or power off, if there is any yaw present, which direction any yaw is in (ie. slipping or skidding turn), and if there is any aileron input during the stall.

I taught spin training in both the T-37 and T-6, and have probably done a couple thousand spins.  My record in one flight in the T-37 was 32 spins but I was solo, just getting a better feel for both normal and abnormal spins and spin entries.  Those "which direction will it go" questions bug me because its a safe bet that I could take a variety of aircraft and prove you wrong, depending on exactly how I flew the stall/spin entry.

My answer to that question is "Assuming the aircraft is not bent beyond manufacturer's original specifications, it could go left, right, or not spin at all depending on if there is any yaw, any uncompensated torque/p-factor, or any significant aileron deflection at the time of the stall."  And I can prove my answer in flight, because that's something I used to do for a living.  9 years and some 1600ish hours teaching primary flight training in high performance aircraft.

The T-6 had a prohibition against "inverted stalls".  What they meant to prohibit was "negative-G stalls".  I must have broken that prohibition or watched students break that prohibition a hundred times when a student added too much back stick pressure at the top of a loop and put the plane into a mild wings-level inverted positive-G stall.  Since it was positive G (hence positive angle of attack on the wing), nothing different happened than if the student had made the same control inputs but upright instead of inverted.  Aircraft attitude has little to do with stall and spin entry modes except for certain specific conditions where an exaggerated nose-high attitude leads to the airspeed (and hence aircraft energy) bleeding off fast enough to let the plane transition from one spin mode to another before the spin develops.  But that is a very specific situation, and it is of course one I can also demonstrate in the aircraft

Excellent reply! However, in the interest of clarity, you must remember that the question, 99% of the time was put to a civilian, who had no formal military training and the answer which I was seeking from the student was that more than likely, the high wing will stall first, assuming in a co-oranated turn, such as from base to final approach when the aircraft is closest to the ground, yet in a turn. However, as you point out, if aircraft is slipping or skidding in the turn, it might just "tuck' under the low wing.
I have never done any instructing in a high performance aircraft, as most of my instructing was instrument and multi-engine training, in internal combustion engine aircraft.

[eagl]

In a final turn, the "common" error is to skid in the turn as the idiot over-confident or novice pilot will apply rudder into the turn.  In that case the low wing stalls first and the plane will spin in the direction of the turn.  I think this is probably the most common stall/spin scenario across the board and since it is invariably fatal due to low altitude, it has been the stall/spin scenario I probably spent the most time instructing to. 

This error is one part of the dreaded but incorrect "downwind final turn" myth, where overshooting or tail winds cause a pilot to attempt to tighten down the final turn to maintain their normal ground track, not realizing that the winds are causing the ground track to look different.  Invariably the pilot deceived by unusual winds in the final turn will recognize that they're overshooting their desired ground track and will try to tighten down the turn with increased bank and rudder into the turn, not realizing that their airspeed is rapidly dropping and the increased bank and skid angle has put them right on the edge of the stall.  When that stall comes due to the otherwise stable entry conditions, the entry is very often abrupt and in the form of a rapid roll to near inverted in the direction of the turn with a dramatic nose drop as well.  The aircraft configuration and accelerated stall situation often masks the approach to stall indications (stall horn and/or airframe buffeting) so it feels like the stall and spin happened with no warning.  The warnings still happened, but the pilot is generally fixated on the final turn and not on what the plane is telling him/her, so they miss the very brief period of stall warning before the bottom wing stalls and the plane wraps itself up.

In the USAF this entry is taught as a power on turning stall or approach to stall, but the resultant abrupt spin isn't specifically demonstrated due to the abrupt nature of the spin entry.  It can be shown in the sim though.