Author Topic: Sherman gun question  (Read 4328 times)

Offline Oldman731

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Sherman gun question
« on: April 29, 2015, 04:11:57 PM »
A few years ago I had some time to motor around the Bulge area.  While in Clervaux I took these two shots.  The 88 on that carriage was interesting enough, but, looking back on it, I can't figure what the gun is on the Sherman.  Appears to be too long to be the usual 75, and no muzzle brake like the 76s...could it be a 3-inch?

Took a close-up of the sign in front of the tank to authenticate the tank.





Would appreciate input from you knowledgeable types.

- oldman

Offline Mister Fork

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Re: Sherman gun question
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2015, 04:51:26 PM »
Interesting...Sherman IB? It had a modified 105 mm M4 L/22.5 howitzer.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Sherman gun question
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2015, 06:17:55 PM »
It's the 76 mm M1. The first few hundred didn't have a muzzle break. It looks like it's threaded for the muzzle break though, with a protective collar. Muzzle break could have been removed post war for some reason. You see a similar M4 (76) in the film "Fury". "Fury" has a muzzle break, but one of the other M4's only has a collar like that. The other two were 75 mm.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Sherman gun question
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2015, 09:10:37 PM »
Right about the period of the Bulge (although I seem to recall it was before) all of the 76mm tanks were replaced with the muzzle brake variety. Certainly by the time the Allies were in as far as depicted in Fury the 76s would have all been updated. The updated armor plating is missing in this tank as well, so it was obviously just at the end of its useful life and left in the field. Unlike the German tanks the M4s had a tremendous useful life. Most Panthers were done at 150-200 miles while the majority of Sherman from Normandy to the Bulge had already clocked 1,500 miles and were replaced or due to be replaced.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Sherman gun question
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2015, 09:44:34 AM »
Oldsmobile started threading the muzzles when it was decided that a muzzle break was needed, but it would take some time for the brake itself to be designed and produced. Many Shermans got the gun as depicted in the OP's photo (and in Fury) where the threads are covered by a collar ready to have the brake retrofitted in the field. However, it is likely that a number of tanks never got it, for any number of practical wartime reasons. Only the first few hundred 76 mm guns were not threaded and did not have the collar, but had a straight tube all the way to the muzzle, just like the 75 mm.
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Offline save

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Re: Sherman gun question
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2015, 07:32:52 PM »
Fighting a defensive battle with constant retreats means you have to abandon equipment instead of repairing/upgrading
them as you can, when you take ground.
It's normally not the tank's fault you get low mileage, unless you press them into service too early (Panther at Kursk)
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Sherman gun question
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2015, 11:43:11 PM »
Immediately thought of this photo showing Patton and Secretary of War Stimson inspecting the 2nd Armored at the end of the war.  Note the first two Shermans where you can see the end of the barrel have the muzzle brakes, then the next three are like the tank in Oldman's photo.  It's about 50/50 in terms of having or not having the brake.

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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Sherman gun question
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2015, 12:09:41 AM »
It's normally not the tank's fault you get low mileage, unless you press them into service too early (Panther at Kursk)

That is just a ludicrous statement. The Panther, for instance, was a great tank when it worked. The problem is they failed regularly and after very few miles.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Sherman gun question
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2015, 01:07:09 AM »
And if they weren't on the defensive the tanks would have been repaired and returned to service. T-34s also broke down often, but were easier to repair in the field. Shermans had a reputation for reliability, but I guess it varied with the many different versions and engine options.
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Offline save

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Re: Sherman gun question
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2015, 06:03:58 AM »
I don't know how many years you have spent in a tank force, but my personal experience with serviceability under different weather conditions differs quite a lot.

If the Panthers at Kursk did not have to face the worst muddy terrain you can imagine, thing might have looked quite different even if we with facit in hand know they had many problems but the weather made it much worse.

I recommend reading some detailed books of Kursk offensive, as how-not-to-do-it.

I remember one instance we had 4 out of 12 tanks (IKV91) working, none from my platoon worked, and the S-tank guys faced the same problems (they where the red team at that exercise). Much of this was due to very shifting snow conditions during those weeks, from 30cm dry snow to 2 meter wet snow, clogging up tracks and put strain to gearboxes and other mechanical things.

If we would have to face and advancing enemy ,we would have lost 9 out of 12 tanks in the company.

Next drill we had 2 years later I always had at least 3 of my 4 tanks working, in good dry snow, some also owed to new tracks, and fixed gearboxes. Me in commanders cupola below.





That is just a ludicrous statement. The Panther, for instance, was a great tank when it worked. The problem is they failed regularly and after very few miles.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 06:46:15 AM by save »
My ammo last for 6 Lancasters, or one Yak3.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Sherman gun question
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2015, 02:12:51 PM »
The British captured an intact early model Panther Ausf. G near the Dutch village of Overloon. The tank was pressed into service with the 4th Armored Battalion of the British 6th Tank Brigade. The tank was nicknamed "Cuckoo" and served with the unit in late 1944 to early 1945. Without spares of any kind the British kept the Panther running and it proved a valuable asset in several battles. Cuckoo marched on its own tracks from Belgium through the Netherlands and into Germany, where its journey, and service to freedom ended.

Cuckoo first saw service helping the artillery barrage on the Gejsteren castle, north of Venlo, on the Meuse River. After an infantry attack on the castle failed, the decision was made to bombard the castle with artillery. During the artillery bombardment on the castle, they found Cuckoo to be a worthy newcomer with its ability to shoot 75mm shells through selected windows with extreme accuracy.

After the assault on the castle, during operation "Blackcock" Cuckoo was deployed again, now joining in on an attack on the German town named Waldenrath. Cuckoo was noted as performing very well again with its mobility being especially noticeable compared to the 4th Armored Battalion's Churchill tanks. A veteran remarked: "The road conditions were abominable all day, whereas the Churchill's and the Crocodiles, with no ice bars, slid into ditches at every possible opportunity, "Cuckoo" the Panther, eight tons heavier, trundled merrily along with no difficulty at all."

Cuckoo's career ended during operation "Varitable". When the tank was heading towards the east of Kleve in Germany the fuel pump broke down, lacking a replacement pump the crew sadly had no other choice than to abandon the tank.



"Cuckoo" and crew.
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Offline JVboob

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Re: Sherman gun question
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2015, 02:02:37 AM »
<S> Cuckoo job well done mate!
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Sherman gun question
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2015, 08:08:42 PM »
Muzzle brakes were adopted due to the dust clouds raised by the M1 gun when fired, obscuring the target. The brake directed the blast sideways. There were similar issues with the 90mm on the M36 and M36B1 TDs.


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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Sherman gun question
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2015, 09:36:59 PM »
Immediately thought of this photo showing Patton and Secretary of War Stimson inspecting the 2nd Armored at the end of the war.  Note the first two Shermans where you can see the end of the barrel have the muzzle brakes, then the next three are like the tank in Oldman's photo.  It's about 50/50 in terms of having or not having the brake.




BTW, what look like 75mm guns in this image are actually the earlier Oldsmobile 76mm, which did not receive the muzzle brake until (as I said already) around the time of the BOTB.
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Offline icepac

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Re: Sherman gun question
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2015, 09:12:11 AM »
Muzzle brakes were adopted due to the dust clouds raised by the M1 gun when fired, obscuring the target. The brake directed the blast sideways. There were similar issues with the 90mm on the M36 and M36B1 TDs.


Finally........someone who can spell "brake".