Air Force vs Navy Method

[Oldman731]

Also to add, if you're nose-high and stalling/about to stall in an unusual attitude, the last thing you want to do is pull back power before establishing where you're at the power/climb curve. It's a great way to go into a spin (for fixed wing), or at the least cause a secondary stall.

True, true.  First thing you have to do is figure out if you're climbing or diving, by checking which way the speed needle is moving.

- oldman

[earl1937]

True, true.  First thing you have to do is figure out if you're climbing or diving, by checking which way the speed needle is moving.

- oldman

Look guys, the only thing that is going to tell you for sure if you are climbing or descending is the altimeter!!! The vertical speed indicator or VASI instrument is a "trend" instrument only. I can make the thing show a 1,000 foot per minute climb and my nose pointing at the ground!!! But you can't fool the altimeter, because it does not depend on attitude, just pressure changes as you climb or descending!!!! The only two instruments in the aircraft which will NOT deceive you is the turn and bank indicator and the altimeter. Even the airspeed indicator has "LAG" in it, so you can't depend on it for control of the aircraft.
If the altimeter big hand is not moving and the needle is pointing straight up and the ball is in the cage, the aircraft is straight and level!!!\
Most instruments in today's modern aircraft are electrical driven and they to have their limits of operation, but even at that, they still have some instruments which depend on the "static" port, located on the outside of the aircraft! Locate it and make it a part of your walk around pre-flight inspection.
Most aircraft prior to the 90's, had instrument driven by vacuum pumps or venturi's located on the outside of the aircraft. These too had their faults and limitations, so best get familiar with what is in your aircraft and how it operates, so that in an emergency, you will be better prepared to handle it.

My motto is and always has been: "There are old pilots and bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots".
another motto or phase will serve you well is this: the three things you must have, but can never use in aircraft are:
Runway behind you
altitude above you
fuel left in that red truck sitting on the ramp!

[hitech]

Earl This reminded me of  another difference that  I heard of( I believe from Bob Shaw). On final do you adjust speed with throttle or attitude when on final?

I always fly pitch for speed, and power for under/over shoot.

HiTech

[earl1937]

Earl This reminded me of  another difference that  I heard of( I believe from Bob Shaw). On final do you adjust speed with throttle or attitude when on final?

I always fly pitch for speed, and power for under/over shoot.

HiTech

I have always taught that elevator controls airspeed and throttle controls altitude, but really on short final, its a combination of the two.
Best example if with complete power failure, the only thing left to control airspeed is the elevator.
I had also heard they, the Navy pilots, were taught that power controls airspeed and elevator controls altitude! I guess that would work, as long as you have both available to you.
I was asked once which service trained the best pilot! The only big difference I could find was during instructing at a flight school in Atlanta, we had a bunch of guys, on the VA training programs, getting their ATP ratings in DC-3 and Beech Baron! The Air Force guys would try to land the Baron 50 to 60 feet in the air and the Navy guys about 10 feet in the air, until they got used to the proper "flare" height! There was of course, some interesting moments!!
As far as stick and rudder pilots, recovering from unusual attitudes training, I couldn't tell much difference, if any in the three service guys we had in the school!

[colmbo]

You have to look at the type of flying the Navy does --- that whole landing on a pitching deck thing takes some pretty good stick and rudder work.  Using pitch for altitude has a much quicker result than using power; when trying to hit that few feet of deck at the 3 wire while the deck is pitching you need immediate response.  When doing short field work I used pitch for glide path changes and then power changes to "maintain" the new glideslope.  Of course in practice they are done together since you want both a specific speed and a specific glide path. You can't afford to be high or low on this approach:



I've always been kind of neutral on the whole argument about which controls what.  The way I see it while pitch or throttle can change speed or altitude, if you don't use them both you won't be able to maintain the change you made, at least not while in level or climbing flight.

[earl1937]

True, true.  First thing you have to do is figure out if you're climbing or diving, by checking which way the speed needle is moving.

- oldman

Please, Please don't do that!!! If you do, we will read about you in the paper in the morning!
The airspeed indicator is just like the vertical speed indicator, it is a "trend" instrument and should be regarded as such!
The first thing you want to do anytime in an unusual attitude is level the wings, relative to the ground, where or not you are climbing or diving doesn't really matter, that is the first thing you want to do. Remember, the wings come off the aircraft quicker in a bank than they will in level attitude!
As you level the wings and "stepping" on the ball, glance at the altimeter and see if you are climbing or descending!!!
The altimeter is the ONLY instrument which will tell you at a glance if you are climbing or descending.
Please don't "chase" the airspeed indicator, it will kill you!!

[earl1937]

You have to look at the type of flying the Navy does --- that whole landing on a pitching deck thing takes some pretty good stick and rudder work.  Using pitch for altitude has a much quicker result than using power; when trying to hit that few feet of deck at the 3 wire while the deck is pitching you need immediate response.  When doing short field work I used pitch for glide path changes and then power changes to "maintain" the new glideslope.  Of course in practice they are done together since you want both a specific speed and a specific glide path. You can't afford to be high or low on this approach:

(Image removed from quote.)

I've always been kind of neutral on the whole argument about which controls what.  The way I see it while pitch or throttle can change speed or altitude, if you don't use them both you won't be able to maintain the change you made, at least not while in level or climbing flight.

You make a good point and having never "shot" any traps on a carrier, I would guess the Navy does have to teach a different method than the Air force guys, who have a fixed concrete runway to line up on and land. I, as an instructor never saw any outstanding difference's in either a Navy or Air Force pilot.

[Mace2004]

Navy flies pitch for speed and power for glideslope....right to the deck.  The last thing you want to do is dick with your nose position because attitude is critical for a trap.  The whole system is designed so that when the airplane is at the proper pitch attitude and the pilot sees a centered ball the hook point will impact the deck just before the target wire.  The distance between the pilot's eye and the hook point (conveniently known as the "hook-to-eye distance") changes at different attitudes because the aircraft rotates around its CG. When the nose goes up the hook goes down and vice a versa.  If you lower your nose crossing the ramp (typical of a deck spotter and on dark nights) you actually raise your hook and increase the chance of a late wire or missing the wires altogether resulting in a bolter.  If you raise your nose (say during a late waveoff) you'll lower the hook and increase the chance of a hook-slap, early wire, or in-flight engagement.  Of course it's not all that simple really as any change in one parameter usually requires at least a momentary change in the other to get the right correction.

[earl1937]

Navy flies pitch for speed and power for glideslope....right to the deck.  The last thing you want to do is dick with your nose position because attitude is critical for a trap.  The whole system is designed so that when the airplane is at the proper pitch attitude and the pilot sees a centered ball the hook point will impact the deck just before the target wire.  The distance between the pilot's eye and the hook point (conveniently known as the "hook-to-eye distance") changes at different attitudes because the aircraft rotates around its CG. When the nose goes up the hook goes down and vice a versa.  If you lower your nose crossing the ramp (typical of a deck spotter and on dark nights) you actually raise your hook and increase the chance of a late wire or missing the wires altogether resulting in a bolter.  If you raise your nose (say during a late waveoff) you'll lower the hook and increase the chance of a hook-slap, early wire, or in-flight engagement.  Of course it's not all that simple really as any change in one parameter usually requires at least a momentary change in the other to get the right correction.

Very well said sir! With your explanation, it is easy to see why the Navy teaches that power controls airspeed and elevator controls pitch angle.

[Serenity]

Pretty good answer and lets develop it a little further in the interest of safety

First thing you have to realize is this: there are few instruments that you can depend on in recovering from unusal attitudes, namely, needle and ball, altimeter, airspeed. That is three that you can always depend on to work correctly. The vertical speed indicator is useless in attitude recovery, it is a TREND instrument only and has a lot of lag before it will show any reliable information.

Step `1, power off all the way, you don't want the aircraft accelerating any faster than it already is, chances are the aircraft if already beginning to descend.

Step 2, get the wings level relative to the ground, no matter if aircraft is pointing down or not. You do this by centering the needle on the turn and bank indicator.

Step 3- center the ball. of course you want to do step 2 and 3 at the same time, now the aircraft will be in coornated
fight confg!

Step 4- Stop the loss of altitude!!  Do this slowly, by watching the altimeter and monitoring the airspeed indicator!

If you perform these steps timely and smoothly, you will recover the aircraft and regain control for continuation of the flight.

The pilot, when under going instrument flight training, should have mastered unusual attitude recovery techques
while ongoing his basic instrument control training.

What I always practice was this: no matter what the lesson plan was for that particular lesson, I always ended it with at least 5 minutes of unusual attitude recovery practice. If the student pilot has been taught and developed a solid instrument "scan", he/she will have no problem with this part of their training!

Last, but not least, someone mentioned the Kennedy accident! Everyone who flys as pilot in command should know what their personal limitations are as a pilot and if they don't, they are looking for place to have an accident!

Its funny I found this, as I just did the CAI for this today as a Student Naval Aviator in primary.

Step 1: Determine that you ARE in an unusual attitude. Reference your PFD and BFI BOTH!
Step 2: If nose low, roll wings level with the horizon, throttle as required, then once wings are level, pull up.
           If nose high, go full throttle and roll 90 degrees to the nearest horizon (Wings PERPENDICULAR to the horizon), apply slight back pressure to maintain 1G, and let the nose fall through the horizon. Then, roll wings level and pull up to the horizon.

These are the IMC procedures. In VMC, nose high, you roll inverted and pull back down to the horizon.

[colmbo]

           If nose high, go full throttle and roll 90 degrees to the nearest horizon (Wings PERPENDICULAR to the horizon), apply slight back pressure to maintain 1G, and let the nose fall through the horizon. Then, roll wings level and pull up to the horizon.

Having read about this procedure years ago came in handy one day when the elevator became jammed UP on the jump plane I was flying.

[Serenity]

Having read about this procedure years ago came in handy one day when the elevator became jammed UP on the jump plane I was flying.

Jesus, that had to be a sticky situation!

For us, we just use it to avoid negative Gs ever. Same thing with rolling inverted and pulling in VMC, although we can sustain up to -3.5G and I want to say 15 seconds of flight in negative G... (I need to hit my NATOPS, lol, I should be MUCH more sure of that negative G time limit )