Author Topic: Fun as watching grass grow  (Read 12373 times)

Offline Skyyr

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Re: Fun as watching grass grow
« Reply #180 on: May 11, 2015, 02:24:33 PM »
lol.  ACM is tactical, as in Tactics.  Air Superiority is a Strategic position.  And, someone's is tarnishing his Trident.

Strategy (game theory).

ACM fully meets the definition of an independent strategy.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some log exercises to complete and then a hostage rescue at 4:30.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 02:26:52 PM by Skyyr »
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - 296

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 30-11

KOTH Wins: 6, Egos Broken: 1000+

Mmmmm... tears.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Fun as watching grass grow
« Reply #181 on: May 11, 2015, 05:28:33 PM »
Strategy (game theory).

ACM fully meets the definition of an independent strategy.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some log exercises to complete and then a hostage rescue at 4:30.

Better let Shaw know.



Thanks for impressing us with the casual mention of log exercises and rescue stuff.

P.S.
Now, I could argue ad naseum and cite air combat text books (chiefly the premise for how Robert Shaw devised the concept of ACM to begin with)

Shaw didn't devise the concept of ACM. That would be Boelcke. Are you sure you read all those books you claimed helped you become the ACM authority of renown in a previous sim lifetime or did you use them for a higher perch in your chair so you could see the monitor easier?  :D
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 05:41:42 PM by Arlo »

Offline glzsqd

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Re: Fun as watching grass grow
« Reply #182 on: May 11, 2015, 05:52:07 PM »


Now if you'll excuse me, I have some log exercises to complete.

Impressive yield Skyyr. You should introduce this to the BUDS PT regime once they bring you back as a senior coordinator/instructor.  :aok
See Rule #4

Offline Dragon Tamer

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Re: Fun as watching grass grow
« Reply #183 on: May 11, 2015, 05:53:10 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)
Impressive yield Skyyr. Should introduce this to the BUDS PT regime once they bring you back as a senior coordinator/instructor.  :aok

How the hell do you keep managing to find these pictures?  :headscratch:

Offline Arlo

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Re: Fun as watching grass grow
« Reply #184 on: May 11, 2015, 05:53:28 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)
Impressive yield Skyyr. You should introduce this to the BUDS PT regime once they bring you back as a senior coordinator/instructor.  :aok

Holy cra ....

Offline Arlo

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Re: Fun as watching grass grow
« Reply #185 on: May 11, 2015, 05:55:06 PM »
How the hell do you keep managing to find these pictures?  :headscratch:

I'm guessing an internet search phrase of 'log in toilet.'  ;)

Tis funny.  :aok


Offline Skyyr

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Re: Fun as watching grass grow
« Reply #186 on: May 11, 2015, 06:28:06 PM »
Better let Shaw know.

(Image removed from quote.)

Thanks for impressing us with the casual mention of log exercises and rescue stuff.

P.S.
Shaw didn't devise the concept of ACM. That would be Boelcke. Are you sure you read all those books you claimed helped you become the ACM authority of renown in a previous sim lifetime or did you use them for a higher perch in your chair so you could see the monitor easier?  :D

Shaw was the first to analyze combat tactics and organize them into the logical field of study we know today as air combat maneuvering. Prior to that, rules were simply general guidelines based on experience, not logic or science. Nothing prior compares to Shaw's work.

Your statement is the equivalent of saying that because the Chinese invented the first gunpowder rockets, Goddard is not the true father of rocketry. Your post is disingenuous at best.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 06:31:57 PM by Skyyr »
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - 296

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 30-11

KOTH Wins: 6, Egos Broken: 1000+

Mmmmm... tears.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Fun as watching grass grow
« Reply #187 on: May 11, 2015, 06:56:48 PM »
Shaw was the first to analyze combat tactics and organize them into the logical field of study we know today as air combat maneuvering. Prior to that, rules were simply general guidelines based on experience, not logic or science. Nothing prior compares to Shaw's work.

Your statement is the equivalent of saying that because the Chinese invented the first gunpowder rockets, Goddard is not the true father of rocketry. Your post is disingenuous at best.

What makes this all the more humorous is that I truly believe you are are trying to be serious. Boelcke was the first pilot to analyze aerial warfare tactics (the ACM you throw around and compare to chess strategy stands for 'air combat maneuvering' - I know I've explained that to you at least twice). Did you think you found a claim by Shaw that he invented ACM? He's an expert in the field but even he doesn't claim that.

Seriously, I recognize your personality. It's not unusual on the internet. I don't claim to be an expert on ACM but I've obviously gleaned more knowledge about it in the 19 years I've been an online dogfighting game addict than you have in your 16 years of 'studying' it and even 'writing articles for another online dogfighting community.' I know you'll argue that you're never wrong to your dying breath. Mmmmmok. I'll let you. :D
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 07:41:23 PM by Arlo »

Offline Skyyr

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Re: Fun as watching grass grow
« Reply #188 on: May 11, 2015, 07:49:03 PM »
What makes this all the more humorous is that I truly believe you are are trying to be serious. Boelcke was the first pilot to analyze aerial warfare tactics (the ACM you throw around and compare to chess strategy stands for 'air combat maneuvering' - I know I've explained that to you at least twice). Did you think you found a claim by Shaw that he invented ACM? He's an expert in the field but even he doesn't claim that. (And it's beginning to look like you can't claim even the former no matter how good you are at playing the game. But then, you claim that ACM is a gaming strategy.)  :D

You could explain the above to me 100 times over, it still wouldn't change that your are incorrect, or that you repeatedly try to portray your opinion as fact.

First, your statement here is false:

Boelcke was the first pilot to analyze aerial warfare tactics

He was not the first to analyze tactics (as you falsely claim); he was the first to develop a list of fundamentals that others could utilize. Fighter pilots of WWI were taught rudimentary tactics in the classroom, and they were analyzed with limited data. Let me guess - you quoted Wikipedia as saying he was the "first"? Here's Wikipedia's citation link: http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/boelcke.htm (check it yourself), not even it claims he was the first (and he wasn't). He was simply the first to disseminate the information in a simple set of rules for others to use.

Secondly, another false statement:

the ACM you throw around and compare to chess strategy

Not once have I compared any combat maneuver to a chess strategy, nor have I once brought up chess strategy. "Game theory" has absolutely nothing to do with any particular medium, and is instead based on logical risk taking and strategy dominance, an abstract concept.

Another false statement:

Did you think you found a claim by Shaw that he invented ACM?

I never said Shaw "invented" ACM; what I said was he devised the concept of ACM. Now, in your defense, I left out the word "modern" - it should have read as "Shaw devised the concept of modern ACM." Shaw's research and clarification into the specifics of energy vs angles fights are what led directly to modern air combat maneuvering tactics. Combined with John Boyd's work on the E/M diagram, we know specifically how to fight enemy aircraft. There is a reason why Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering is still used as a primary resource in fighter pilot classrooms.

In just one paragraph, you've managed to make numerous false claims and fail to correctly quote what was said, all while continuing to inject fallacies and attacks. Then again, that's par for the course here.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 08:04:41 PM by Skyyr »
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - 296

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 30-11

KOTH Wins: 6, Egos Broken: 1000+

Mmmmm... tears.

Offline Changeup

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Re: Fun as watching grass grow
« Reply #189 on: May 11, 2015, 07:58:30 PM »
Oil Can Boyd had an awesome deuce.

EDIT:  His strategy was to throw 15 ground balls per game because statistically, MLB GAMES are won 81% of the time by the team whose pitcher throws 14 ground balls or more PER GAME.  This is an example of how one of many strategies can yield a desired result. His tactic to generate 15 ground balls was to unleash his deuce...or to drop a "hammer" on each hitter along with his unimpressive, diving circle CHANGEUP because downward moving pitches generated ground balls about 85% of the time.

His problem is that the opposing team knows that another strategy to win a baseball game is to put runners on base anyway you can, including WALKS.  Oil Can Boyd didn't throw his deuces for strikes a lot so their tactic was to NOT swing at deuces.

And that is why we go ahead and play the game.  To see whose strategy works, eh?  Most of the time its completely dependent on who executes the tactical plan better.

You buttheads wont find those stats in Wikipedia.   :neener:

I would venture to say ACM is a tactic when being thought about by Strategic planners for winning, occupying and denying opposition airspace.  I would say ACM is a strategy by the pilot who, once engaged, has a new strategic objective.  To stay alive.

See, its all about perspective.  So you're both right.  And you're both wrong.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 08:21:07 PM by Changeup »
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Fun as watching grass grow
« Reply #190 on: May 11, 2015, 08:31:38 PM »
Shaw was the first to analyze combat tactics and organize them into the logical field of study we know today as air combat maneuvering. Prior to that, rules were simply general guidelines based on experience, not logic or science. Nothing prior compares to Shaw's work.


John Boyd was the first, not Shaw.  Boyd revolutionized air-to-air fighting when he developed his Energy-Maneuverability theory and published his Aerial Attack Study.

You can find John Boyd's Aerial Attack Study and his other papers at this site.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 08:34:02 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Fun as watching grass grow
« Reply #191 on: May 11, 2015, 08:35:34 PM »
John Boyd was the first, not Shaw.  Boyd revolutionized air-to-air fighting when he developed his Energy-Maneuverability theory and published his Aerial Attack Study.

You can find John Boyd's Aerial Attack Study and his other papers at this site.

I actually mentioned that in my last post. Boyd did the work first, yes; however, Shaw simplified the tactics further, almost into conditionals (if, then, else), utilizing the E/M diagram, and divided them into energy tactics vs angles tactics. If my memory serves me correctly, Boyd did not make that distinction.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 08:38:34 PM by Skyyr »
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - 296

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 30-11

KOTH Wins: 6, Egos Broken: 1000+

Mmmmm... tears.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Fun as watching grass grow
« Reply #192 on: May 11, 2015, 08:44:58 PM »
Skyrr, I told you I'll let you argue about how you're never wrong til you croak.

Take it up with Shaw. Here's the preface of his book (you claim to have read):

(Ctrl + to zoom text if need be.)



or .... just go here: http://books.google.com/books?id=hBxBdKr0beYC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 08:49:13 PM by Arlo »

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Fun as watching grass grow
« Reply #193 on: May 11, 2015, 08:46:02 PM »
I actually mentioned that in my last post. Boyd did the work first, yes; however, Shaw simplified the tactics further, almost into conditionals (if, then, else), utilizing the E/M diagram, and divided them into energy tactics vs angles tactics. If my memory serves me correctly, Boyd did not make that distinction.

Boyd did with the Aerial Attack Study.
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline SPKmes

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Re: Fun as watching grass grow
« Reply #194 on: May 11, 2015, 08:49:26 PM »
Holy cow !!!  all this from watching grass grow..... boy my side of the fence is lacking some  :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl