General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: HawkerMKII on May 09, 2015, 09:21:57 AM
Title: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: HawkerMKII on May 09, 2015, 09:21:57 AM
20 eny, 2 sided war, and hq down for 3 hours....fun fun fun....not. Great way to spend $15 a month. Really don't think this game will get any better with AH3. Kinda wonder why numbers are dropping like flies :bhead
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 09:22:46 AM
20 eny, 2 sided war, and hq down for 3 hours....fun fun fun....not. Great way to spend $15 a month. Really don't think this game will get any better with AH3. Kinda wonder why numbers are dropping like flies :bhead
I see a Rule #4 in your future. But I agree.
ENY has ruined some great fights. Too bad for Germany and Japan they didn't have ENY to stop the Allies.
I won't even speak of the dar issues.
(Prepare for the ostriches to pile on in this thread and tell you to leave if you don't like it.)
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: fudgums on May 09, 2015, 09:28:31 AM
That's what makes Special Events the reason why I fly. MA is just practice!
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: jimson on May 09, 2015, 09:29:29 AM
Not all the answers, but we can see what doesn't work.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Bizman on May 09, 2015, 09:31:19 AM
If you're talking about yesterday, I would have joined but the connections weren't playable. Since PingPlotter showed the worst values in the last few hops, it's probably connected to this thread: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,371585.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,371585.0.html)
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: captain1ma on May 09, 2015, 09:32:09 AM
get a shade so that the side switching rule doesn't affect you. then you can easily jump sides and continue the slugfest wherever it may be!
become the aggressor instead of the victim!
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 09:33:27 AM
Wait a minute, isn't that exactly what people are frequently asking for in the wishlist? :old: :bolt:
Not like this. Two countries vs one is not advocated. Nice try bud. :salute
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: captain1ma on May 09, 2015, 09:46:00 AM
I pay for several accounts, some for people that cant afford it, 2 of my own.... most of the time I don't even use my shade, I just keep it to help support the game. call me what you like, it is what it is.... the point is that we have a 2 sided arena which hardly no one uses. then we have people with this inane loyalty to a chess piece. I think it would be more fun for them, if they just went to the lowest side. that's what I do.
because the side switching is so long, I don't really blame them for getting all cranky, but I certainly to wouldn't squawk about it, id do something about it.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Lusche on May 09, 2015, 09:46:33 AM
Not like this. Two countries vs one is not advocated. Nice try bud. :salute
What would make the difference? One country could still be as large as two current countries combined. After all, in your book there wouldn't be any ENY ;)
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: captain1ma on May 09, 2015, 09:50:43 AM
isn't the idea of ENY to keep the side with the lowest numbers from getting totally annihilated? ids say that works pretty good! as for HQ down... protect HQ!
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: The Fugitive on May 09, 2015, 09:57:29 AM
Not like this. Two countries vs one is not advocated. Nice try bud. :salute
Lusche is right, in a 2 country fight it can very easily end up like the map is now with three side. Fights are just running both flanks.
In the case of today, right now. Bish and rook have mid 40s for players and Knights have mid 20s. Bish are the ones fighting on two fronts. Of course the second front has something along the line of a dozen or so attacking. Due to the numbers both Rooks and Bish are under some strong ENY.
The biggest problem, is that we are on the Fester map, have just over 100 people in the arena and a third of them are trying to sneak into HQ A number of Rooks were braggin about dropping an HQ and them..... oh what skill.... baggin a crap load of goons that were trying to resupply. So instead of using the blinding of the enemy to attack bases all along the front they are looking to kill goons. Yup, thats the kind of game play that is going to user this game into the fut..... err.... history.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: 68ZooM on May 09, 2015, 10:24:38 AM
isn't the idea of ENY to keep the side with the lowest numbers from getting totally annihilated? ids say that works pretty good! as for HQ down... protect HQ!
Person who has limited hours of flight time should not have to spend their time flying around HQ defending it ..... But here's their new trick they just stay out of flashing distance and put it down with ground vehicles how do you defend against that? They also do it with the strats.. why is the most important thing in the game headquarters which controls all the radar has no radar at all kinda dumb isn't it? And piss poor design.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 10:32:22 AM
Lusche is right, in a 2 country fight it can very easily end up like the map is now with three side. Fights are just running both flanks.
In the case of today, right now. Bish and rook have mid 40s for players and Knights have mid 20s. Bish are the ones fighting on two fronts. Of course the second front has something along the line of a dozen or so attacking. Due to the numbers both Rooks and Bish are under some strong ENY.
The biggest problem, is that we are on the Fester map, have just over 100 people in the arena and a third of them are trying to sneak into HQ A number of Rooks were braggin about dropping an HQ and them..... oh what skill.... baggin a crap load of goons that were trying to resupply. So instead of using the blinding of the enemy to attack bases all along the front they are looking to kill goons. Yup, thats the kind of game play that is going to user this game into the fut..... err.... history.
No, he is wrong. In Warbirds we switched for balance all the time.
Even when one side was rolling the map it was more fun than this. The lines moved. Here they are stagnant. And on the rare days an offensive gets some steam the stupid ENY kicks in and shuts the fight down.
Three-sided giant maps are a snooze fest.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Lusche on May 09, 2015, 10:37:14 AM
Person who has limited hours of flight time should not have to spend their time flying around HQ defending it ..... But here's their new trick they just stay out of flashing distance and put it down with ground vehicles how do you defend against that? They also do it with the strats.. why is the most important thing in the game headquarters which controls all the radar has no radar at all kinda dumb isn't it? And piss poor design.
This is not correct, it would change only for that arena session, and after a reset it would be back to default. If it was an easy change I would have done so already.
HiTech
I do not mind that the HQ does what it does, THE PROBLEM is it's FAR TOO EASY to bring down. With HiTech's reply in that thread, I have a very good feeling that he's already done the changes to HQ setup/toughness for "AH3", or at the very least, it's going to be changed for "AH3". I think it has something to do with the system they have in place for map resets. HTC will have to overhaul that system to toughen the HQ. Now that be a doozy simply because: A) Stop working on AH3 to fix it, or B) Ignore it and continue working full bore on "AH3".
No, he is wrong. In Warbirds we switched for balance all the time.
Even when one side was rolling the map it was more fun than this. The lines moved. Here they are stagnant. And on the rare days an offensive gets some steam the stupid ENY kicks in and shuts the fight down.
Three-sided giant maps are a snooze fest.
ENY has very rarely bothered me. There are still plenty of AC and GV's capable of fighting and base taking, just take more skill (and before you say anything, I can't hit the ground with my hat in 3 tries, let alone hit something in ENY 5 things. :P). People just being sheep about it. "Oh noez! I no fly P51/La 7/Spit <insert number here> due to ENY!!!!11 I quitz!!1"
In regards to the 12hr rule, HTC could consider dropping it to 1-4hr for the duration of "AH2", until "AH3" is completed. :headscratch:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 09, 2015, 10:44:02 AM
20 eny, 2 sided war, and hq down for 3 hours....fun fun fun....not. Great way to spend $15 a month. Really don't think this game will get any better with AH3. Kinda wonder why numbers are dropping like flies :bhead
SWITCH SIDES!!
If you aren't enjoying the fight, switch sides and fight on another team.
If your team is hoarding and there is no fight. Switch teams and go find fights in other places.
I understand your concern but you always have choices and and sometimes you have to switch to find the fun you are looking for. I do it all the time and it works! Plus I get to fight with and against both sides. I don't really care which team wins, but I want the team I'm on at the time to do well.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Hap on May 09, 2015, 10:46:03 AM
Played this morning. Had fun. Revenge B24 raid with Ghi. Earlier, flew with squaddies, and took some bases.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 10:56:00 AM
I do not mind that the HQ does what it does, THE PROBLEM is it's FAR TOO EASY to bring down. With HiTech's reply in that thread, I have a very good feeling that he's already done the changes to HQ setup/toughness for "AH3", or at the very least, it's going to be changed for "AH3". I think it has something to do with the system they have in place for map resets. HTC will have to overhaul that system to toughen the HQ. Now that be a doozy simply because: A) Stop working on AH3 to fix it, or B) Ignore it and continue working full bore on "AH3".
ENY has very rarely bothered me. There are still plenty of AC and GV's capable of fighting and base taking, just take more skill (and before you say anything, I can't hit the ground with my hat in 3 tries, let alone hit something in ENY 5 things. :P). People just being sheep about it. "Oh noez! I no fly P51/La 7/Spit <insert number here> due to ENY!!!!11 I quitz!!1"
In regards to the 12hr rule, HTC could consider dropping it to 1-4hr for the duration of "AH2", until "AH3" is completed. :headscratch:
This is the problem with anecdotal evidence. That it rarely affects you doesn't mean the rest of us are unaffected by ENY. I can assure you it has affected me and my team plenty. To the point people logoff. And we all want fewer players because that is great for gameplay.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 11:03:56 AM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Lusche on May 09, 2015, 11:04:35 AM
How witty :aok
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 11:05:26 AM
I pay for several accounts, some for people that cant afford it, 2 of my own.... most of the time I don't even use my shade, I just keep it to help support the game. call me what you like, it is what it is.... the point is that we have a 2 sided arena which hardly no one uses. then we have people with this inane loyalty to a chess piece. I think it would be more fun for them, if they just went to the lowest side. that's what I do.
because the side switching is so long, I don't really blame them for getting all cranky, but I certainly to wouldn't squawk about it, id do something about it.
I also hope more people dig into the AvA arena. It helps your game so much and is very realistic, but the maps are smaller, bases are closer together, and radar always works. Its a blast when 4 > people are fighting in there!
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 11:12:38 AM
Posted by Arlo
You are ignoring this user.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 09, 2015, 11:16:10 AM
But here's some advice, whether you 'ignore' it or not. When posting on the forum about a 'problem' - try being part of the answer. You've been given some good advice (for you and your squaddies both). You not wanting to follow it doesn't mean that players aren't part of both the problem and the answer.
Yes, there was a *reason* for ENY.
Edit - wait, you can't follow advice and be part of the answer in a game you don't play.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: fudgums on May 09, 2015, 11:42:09 AM
I also hope more people dig into the AvA arena. It helps your game so much and is very realistic, but the maps are smaller, bases are closer together, and radar always works. Its a blast when 4 > people are fighting in there!
AvA Dev Team is starting to pump more ideas out. Thursday night tank wars are awesome(especially with winter terrain and skins). Monday there is a thing going on with air starts and bombers with escorts.
We are working on an idea to bring back the old school AvA wars but ran as like campaigns with battles and objectives.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Volron on May 09, 2015, 12:02:58 PM
No Arlo, no. Go piss into the wind, you'll get farther. :)
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 09, 2015, 12:06:46 PM
AvA Dev Team is starting to pump more ideas out. Thursday night tank wars are awesome(especially with winter terrain and skins). Monday there is a thing going on with air starts and bombers with escorts.
We are working on an idea to bring back the old school AvA wars but ran as like campaigns with battles and objectives.
Yeah I'm just not a big tank guy. I'm all about the air combat in AH, so I'm just kind of confused why you guys push the tank combat so much in a airplane game. However, I suppose its working and I don't see why having one tank night is a problem. But the fighter aspect to the arena is very fun IMO and I enjoy setting up attacks on players with no icons. It really gives you a perspective on how open you have to be with SA even when the dots are present on the maps at all times.
The only way more people are going to attempt to enter the arena is if there are 4 or more people in the arena when people look at the clipboards to choose a fight. If I see more than 4 people in there I'll check it out to see if any are in the air flying. Then more people might join in from the confidence of the #s in the arena. I like the realistic fighter setups you guys have. I don't really think much needs to be changed honestly, it just needs 4> people in there at all times to maybe spark an interest for people to try it knowing there are already people in there willing to fight.
Maybe you could promote a fighter night much like you do a tank night on the main BB here and hopefully more peeps will check it out.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: mthrockmor on May 09, 2015, 12:55:43 PM
- Remove the 12 hour side switch rule, which AH won't budge on.
- Allow Air Starts around HQ, even if you perked it.
When they put into place the 12 hour it had an almost immediate, negative impact on numbers. It has not killed AH, though it has impacted it. With the Air Starts, it is way to easy for one set of buffs to take down radar. I logged in a couple weeks back, within 15 minutes the fights all but dried up as radar went down. Then I spent the next 15-20 minutes in a C-47 being a good team player, hauling supplies to HQ. Radar goes up, 10 minutes later I have to log for family reasons. In about an hour in game I had one little fight at the beginning, the rest was zilch. The problem is way too many are having a similar experience frequently.
Again, AH seems to be putting all of their eggs into AH3. Let's hope they are right though the market says otherwise. I've also given up hope that AH reads these boards for ideas. I think they just troll them to ban #4 violations. In any case, I'll keep paying my $14.95 a month and playing a few times a month in the hopes of....
Time will tell.
boo :headscratch:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 12:58:51 PM
Vote with your wallet. It is the only thing they will hear. Just reward them when they respond positively by coming back.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Lusche on May 09, 2015, 01:04:41 PM
When they put into place the 12 hour it had an almost immediate, negative impact on numbers.
Now there I would be interested on the data you based this upon.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 09, 2015, 01:05:51 PM
Vraciu, you come to the game for a couple of years, beech and moan the entire time you had an active account, quit the game, come back to the forum regularly without anything positive to say and now you are trying to talk others into quitting (under the impression that such loss of income will help the developers improve the game?)
Yeah, yeah yeah .... 'on ignore.'
If anyone deserves the ban hammer, you do.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: bustr on May 09, 2015, 02:02:42 PM
Arlo,
He's learning from watching television. This is his version of pulling a Baltimore on Hitech. No gimmi what I want, no peace. In this post he is trying out community organizing with a walkout like we players are unionized.
Didn't you notice some occupy wallstreet flavor to the insurrection that tried to happen in these forums a few years back? So Hitech pulled a Giuliani on them.
His revenge on Hitech looks like he wants to assist the easy to stampede to leave the game because Hitech won't give him what he wants. That didn't work out very well when Hitech went Giuliani on the group who tried it last time. So far Vraciu has managed to only dance on the line they crossed like a blitzkrieg.
So what got you involved finally?
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 03:00:14 PM
He's learning from watching television. This is his version of pulling a Baltimore on Hitech. No gimmi what I want, no peace. In this post he is trying out community organizing with a walkout like we players are unionized.
Didn't you notice some occupy wallstreet flavor to the insurrection that tried to happen in these forums a few years back? So Hitech pulled a Giuliani on them.
His revenge on Hitech looks like he wants to assist the easy to stampede to leave the game because Hitech won't give him what he wants. That didn't work out very well when Hitech went Giuliani on the group who tried it last time. So far Vraciu has managed to only dance on the line they crossed like a blitzkrieg.
So what got you involved finally?
I'll take stalkers for 100, Alex. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 09, 2015, 03:06:19 PM
Vote with your wallet. It is the only thing they will hear. Just reward them when they respond positively by coming back.
Vraciu, exactly what are you advocating here. It looks like you are telling people to quit the game now and then come back only when what you dislike is fixed. It looks like you want to take away the revenue that HiTech needs to operate on as he fixes what he is currently working on.
How, in any way, does this help the game? How does this help stop the decline in numbers?
I have a problem with how you conduct yourself, sir. You have become nothing but a Troll, sir.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Lab Rat 3947 on May 09, 2015, 03:45:01 PM
Quote
I don't much care for kids peeing in the sandbox from the other side of the chain-link fence just to stir up those who still play there.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :aok
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Lusche on May 09, 2015, 03:51:29 PM
And now on this saturday, where I actually would have a chance to fly & fight with ~200 players...
... my connection went down the drain (to be exact: the Verizon part of it in the US) and any play is now impossible :furious
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: fudgums on May 09, 2015, 03:55:51 PM
Yeah I'm just not a big tank guy. I'm all about the air combat in AH, so I'm just kind of confused why you guys push the tank combat so much in a airplane game. However, I suppose its working and I don't see why having one tank night is a problem. But the fighter aspect to the arena is very fun IMO and I enjoy setting up attacks on players with no icons. It really gives you a perspective on how open you have to be with SA even when the dots are present on the maps at all times.
The only way more people are going to attempt to enter the arena is if there are 4 or more people in the arena when people look at the clipboards to choose a fight. If I see more than 4 people in there I'll check it out to see if any are in the air flying. Then more people might join in from the confidence of the #s in the arena. I like the realistic fighter setups you guys have. I don't really think much needs to be changed honestly, it just needs 4> people in there at all times to maybe spark an interest for people to try it knowing there are already people in there willing to fight.
Maybe you could promote a fighter night much like you do a tank night on the main BB here and hopefully more peeps will check it out.
Tank night is just one night per week, and when it's going it's really fun. I don't love tanking but I think a couple of weeks ago, there was about 20 guys in there in tanks, it was fun.
More information will be coming out soon on the AvA wars and there will be a thing going on Monday night in the arena.
The AvA wars is sort of like a WW2 online ideaology behind it all, and if you want more information on the process, just send me a PM. It's sort of like combining the MA and the SEA.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 09, 2015, 03:56:09 PM
HT needs to fix Verizon. ;) (Honestly, I sympathize.)
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: bustr on May 09, 2015, 03:59:21 PM
Same `ol. I don't much care for kids peeing in the sandbox from the other side of the chain-link fence just to stir up those who still play there.
At least he learned from watching the last round of real ban hammering how to dance the bleeding edge of the flame. Still he has represented himself as wanting revenge on Hitech for unfulfilled demands. And willing to feed anyone else's mild issues with Hitech into full blown rage like his own if he can pull it off.
Guess Clint Eastwood got off easy in "Play Misty for Me". At least his angry stalker got a finite ending to the affair. Thankfully this isn't Garland either, just an unhappy internet hurt feelings peddler trolling for easy marks.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 09, 2015, 04:03:36 PM
:D
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 04:28:45 PM
Vraciu, exactly what are you advocating here. It looks like you are telling people to quit the game now and then come back only when what you dislike is fixed. It looks like you want to take away the revenue that HiTech needs to operate on as he fixes what he is currently working on.
How, in any way, does this help the game? How does this help stop the decline in numbers?
I have a problem with how you conduct yourself, sir. You have become nothing but a Troll, sir.
Look, it is your fifteen bucks. I am just beyond the point where I will throw it away every month when the same issues that are ruining gameplay are allowed to persist.
When people say they will blindly pay every month in the hope things will change it doesn't seem to incentivize anything but the status quo. (Yes, I realize I am being harsh here, but I'm speaking on behalf of many who feel the same way.)
Pay your money and dance your dance. I am not going to any more (for now). :salute
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: bustr on May 09, 2015, 04:46:16 PM
In the real world you would then walk away and not linger having voted with your wallet.
Trying to nickel and dime Hitech's failure in any manner you can inflict in these forums. You wave some garbled badge of honor from which you grant yourself a holy right to do what ever you can to save the misguided from Hitech's evil by meeting that with your own evil.
They used to call it "Play Misty for Me" syndrome when people actually stalked you in person to harm you.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 04:51:25 PM
It is a discussion board is it not?
If discussion is not allowed it should renamed.
In the meantime I will post as I see fit. HTC should at least know why people are leaving. "Gameplay Issues" was a bit nebulous.
If you don't like what I have to say feel free to put me on ignore, which is where you will soon be joining Arlo.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 09, 2015, 04:56:30 PM
In the real world you would then walk away and not linger having voted with your wallet.
Trying to nickel and dime Hitech's failure in any manner you can inflict in these forums. You wave some garbled badge of honor from which you grant yourself a holy right to do what ever you can to save the misguided from Hitech's evil by meeting that with your own evil.
They used to call it "Play Misty for Me" syndrome when people actually stalked you in person to harm you.
I can't count the number of hobbies/games I've quit only to hang out on their forums to whine about why I quit and to encourage others to do likewise while pretending I'm doing something to 'help the community.' Mainly because I don't. I can't count the number of times I've threatened to put someone on ignore or bragged about how I'm ignoring them, either.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 05:07:09 PM
^^^^ Stalkers for 200, Alex. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Nathan60 on May 09, 2015, 05:33:23 PM
In the meantime I will post as I see fit. HTC should at least know why people are leaving. "Gameplay Issues" was a bit nebulous. If you don't like what I have to say feel free to put me on ignore, which is where you will soon be joining Arlo.
(http://i28.tinypic.com/2ljp5ok.gif)
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 05:38:13 PM
:rolleyes: (Feel free to explain because it went over my head at warp speed, Scotty.)
Arlo doesn't discuss. He leg humps and uses ad hominem as a bludgeon.
Not worth reading.
Meanwhile, some of us are having a discussion. Feel free to ignore, but to suggest I leave is a bit lame. I don't recall a fee being charged or required to post here.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: DREDIOCK on May 09, 2015, 06:23:45 PM
Really wanna know what the biggest crutch in AH is? Over reliance on a favorable ENY.
HQ being down. Particularly on large maps with the current low numbers is another story
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 09, 2015, 06:30:25 PM
I can't count the number of times I complain about someone I have on ignore as not having a fruitful discussion with me. And lawd knows that someone who is nothing but disruptive in a community being asked to leave is as unfair as that same person suggesting everyone cancel their subscription and leave with them unless they are personally catered to by the game developers (for the sake of the community and all).
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 06:33:02 PM
Really wanna know what the biggest crutch in AH is? Over reliance on a favorable ENY.
HQ being down. Particularly on large maps with the current low numbers is another story
I hate ENY. It is a joke. Let it roll. When ENY goes to 29 it kills all the fights. What's the point?
Yes it is a crutch, for those who want to handicap other players. Let it play out. We penalize with ENY and then make balance harder than needed with side switch limits.
Absolutely mind boggling logic.
I'm sure Arlo has the answers. /sarc
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 06:40:51 PM
Here's to hoping A--- gets his sub for free after all that time spent on his knees. :cheers: :rofl
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skyyr on May 09, 2015, 07:02:29 PM
I personally believe that forum access should be tied to subscription status. However, that idea was unanimously decried by the community (see my thread in the wish list forum).
Considering that, the community isn't really upset about ex-subscribers that post (otherwise they would have supported the idea), they simply don't like people that disagree with them, a majority going so far as to promote or even request said dissenters be banned. Ironic, considering they can't figure out why new players don't want to stay.
Carry on.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 09, 2015, 07:15:35 PM
I've never had anyone who ignored me fixate on me this much. :D
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 07:21:12 PM
I personally believe that forum access should be tied to subscription status. However, that idea was unanimously decried by the community (see my thread in the wish list forum).
Considering that, the community isn't really upset about ex-subscribers that post (otherwise they would have supported the idea), they simply don't like people that disagree with them, a majority going so far as to promote or even request said dissenters be banned. Ironic, considering they can't figure out why new players don't want to stay.
Carry on.
That says it all.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 09, 2015, 07:25:44 PM
Um, others can read Skyrr's post. Having me on ignore doesn't change that.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 07:33:26 PM
^^^^
Stalkers for 200. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 09, 2015, 07:41:02 PM
(http://media.tumblr.com/ee8716c3dad879d2c37d83f41e167daa/tumblr_inline_mrhz6cwNbD1s2o53o.gif) Not 'ignoring.' :D
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 07:42:21 PM
^^^^^
Clearly obsessed. My leg is sore. Go on, Scraps. Get.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 09, 2015, 07:51:51 PM
Squad recruitment is something player can do (and have done) to help numbers. We're talking the personal face-to-face kind. Some of us may have to get out more anyway and we all have real life friends, right? Bound to be a few that have similar interests and may have flown a flight sim or two. Too embarrassed to admit you're an AH junkie? Tell 'em about the 2 free weeks and make sure you're there for `em as they try it.
Now about the griefers and spoilers ... doesn't anyone enjoy hunting the misbehaving kids anymore? That used to be a fun game unto itself.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Rich46yo on May 09, 2015, 08:13:42 PM
At least 75,000 less K/Ds in 4/15 LWA then in 4/14 tour for a rough count of 420,000. I wouldnt even want to compare it against the Aprils 7 or 8 years ago when we'd get 1.5 m. Were rapidly approaching the 3/4'th of the game gone mark. Its simple math.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 08:15:24 PM
At least 75,000 less K/Ds in 4/15 LWA then in 4/14 tour for a rough count of 420,000. I wouldnt even want to compare it against the Aprils 7 or 8 years ago when we'd get 1.5 m. Were rapidly approaching the 3/4'th of the game gone mark. Its simple math.
"People have been saying that since I got here." - The Ostrich
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 09, 2015, 08:17:54 PM
I got it! Let's all cancel our subs so the game will instantly improve! - some guy 'ignoring' me :lol
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 08:43:35 PM
^^^^^^^ Leg humping stalker. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 09, 2015, 08:48:25 PM
That's ok, you're good at ignoring it. :)
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: DREDIOCK on May 09, 2015, 09:00:21 PM
I hate ENY. It is a joke. Let it roll. When ENY goes to 29 it kills all the fights. What's the point?
Yes it is a crutch, for those who want to handicap other players. Let it play out. We penalize with ENY and then make balance harder than needed with side switch limits.
Absolutely mind boggling logic.
I'm sure Arlo has the answers. /sarc
Ive been taking something of a vacation from the D9 and have been flying the G2 most of the time and having a lot of fun with it when my stick isnt spiking on me LOL
For years I flew the 109F had had pretty good success with that. For a long time I didnt even know what ENY was or why anyone got upset over it.
You can be successful with any plane in the game provided you are willing to leave your comfort zone and take the time to learn it
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 09:00:59 PM
Arlo. ^^^^^ Sore knees and lips. No other option.
Too bad he is exempt from Rule 4.
(One thing I miss about AH is shooting him down. Easy kill.) :rofl
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 09:02:24 PM
Ive been taking something of a vacation from the D9 and have been flying the G2 most of the time and having a lot of fun with it when my stick isnt spiking on me LOL
For years I flew the 109F had had pretty good success with that. For a long time I didnt even know what ENY was or why anyone got upset over it.
You can be successful with any plane in the game provided you are willing to leave your comfort zone and take the time to learn it
Yes, but when a game feature drives away players it becomes counterproductive.
:salute
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: DREDIOCK on May 09, 2015, 09:12:59 PM
As I look deep into the crystal ball I see the future. I seee
I personally believe that forum access should be tied to subscription status. However, that idea was unanimously decried by the community (see my thread in the wish list forum).
Considering that, the community isn't really upset about ex-subscribers that post (otherwise they would have supported the idea), they simply don't like people that disagree with them, a majority going so far as to promote or even request said dissenters be banned. Ironic, considering they can't figure out why new players don't want to stay.
Not quite.
Whether you're a paying customer or not, nearly all commentary is useful in some way.
At first.
So everyone now knows that the 12-hour rule, the HQ vulnerability problem, the ENY is unfair issue, the inferior graphics, the two-weeks-free-is-not-enough, the bailing bombers, the hostile community, the lack of fighting spirit, all of these things are destroying AH. Fine. Might be true. Might be fixable, might not. What can be changed, will be changed, if not now then when AH3 comes out.
But we don't need to hear it over and over and over again, ESPECIALLY from people who no longer have skin in the game. It's become like having a nagging wife chained to your wrist with some folks (looks at Vraciu). We get it. We don't need to keep hearing it.
- oldman
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: kappa on May 09, 2015, 10:01:04 PM
Now there I would be interested on the data you based this upon.
It is too bad that ENY and the 12hr rule are set in opposition to one another.. I would be a part of his data after the 12hr debacle but the community weights more than the game.. I suspect many feel the same.. Very lucky circumstances for a game owner imo..
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: The Fugitive on May 09, 2015, 11:26:01 PM
Whether you're a paying customer or not, nearly all commentary is useful in some way.
At first.
So everyone now knows that the 12-hour rule, the HQ vulnerability problem, the ENY is unfair issue, the inferior graphics, the two-weeks-free-is-not-enough, the bailing bombers, the hostile community, the lack of fighting spirit, all of these things are destroying AH. Fine. Might be true. Might be fixable, might not. What can be changed, will be changed, if not now then when AH3 comes out.
But we don't need to hear it over and over and over again, ESPECIALLY from people who no longer have skin in the game. It's become like having a nagging wife chained to your wrist with some folks (looks at Vraciu). We get it. We don't need to keep hearing it.
- oldman
The squeaky wheel gets the oil, and until there is word, or action from HTC in one way or another the constant threads and post show that people are still upset.
Cobia just dropped HQ because "this map sucks and there isn't anything better to do". Yup thats the kind of action people are going to pay $15 a month for!
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Bruv119 on May 10, 2015, 01:55:31 AM
Bish did well yesterday with ENY issues they revenged 2 provoked attacks on their HQ.
I couldn't really break into their mass b24 formations at 20k without getting hurt. The second run even had experienced escorts that drove away most piecemeal attacks. Even with advance warning and solid intel / advice they got through both times. A good example of organised teamwork in the MA. For those that are moaning about HQ's being dropped that is EXACTLY the way to show the handful of griefers that it won't be tolerated. An eye for an eye.
I just wish I had some of my squaddies to provide a better challenge one against 20 gets old sometimes. ;)
:salute ghi, hap et al.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Hap on May 10, 2015, 03:51:05 AM
<S> Bruv
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Max on May 10, 2015, 05:11:15 AM
Whether you're a paying customer or not, nearly all commentary is useful in some way.
At first.
So everyone now knows that the 12-hour rule, the HQ vulnerability problem, the ENY is unfair issue, the inferior graphics, the two-weeks-free-is-not-enough, the bailing bombers, the hostile community, the lack of fighting spirit, all of these things are destroying AH. Fine. Might be true. Might be fixable, might not. What can be changed, will be changed, if not now then when AH3 comes out.
But we don't need to hear it over and over and over again, ESPECIALLY from people who no longer have skin in the game. It's become like having a nagging wife chained to your wrist with some folks (looks at Vraciu). We get it. We don't need to keep hearing it.
- oldman
Agree 100%
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: guncrasher on May 10, 2015, 08:07:24 AM
This is the problem with anecdotal evidence. That it rarely affects you doesn't mean the rest of us are unaffected by ENY. I can assure you it has affected me and my team plenty. To the point people logoff. And we all want fewer players because that is great for gameplay.
wonder how eny affects him, he doesn't have an account.
semp
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: The Fugitive on May 10, 2015, 08:08:38 AM
Bish did well yesterday with ENY issues they revenged 2 provoked attacks on their HQ.
I couldn't really break into their mass b24 formations at 20k without getting hurt. The second run even had experienced escorts that drove away most piecemeal attacks. Even with advance warning and solid intel / advice they got through both times. A good example of organised teamwork in the MA. For those that are moaning about HQ's being dropped that is EXACTLY the way to show the handful of griefers that it won't be tolerated. An eye for an eye.
I just wish I had some of my squaddies to provide a better challenge one against 20 gets old sometimes. ;)
:salute ghi, hap et al.
ah yes, if some Ahole screws us, lets screw him! bahh BS!
It's that kind of vindictive crap that ruins EVERYONES fun in a game and teaches these kids how to get the crap beat out of them in real life. :old:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: BuckShot on May 10, 2015, 08:15:25 AM
I thought this thread was going to be about resupplying HQ.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 10, 2015, 08:22:47 AM
Bish did well yesterday with ENY issues they revenged 2 provoked attacks on their HQ.
I couldn't really break into their mass b24 formations at 20k without getting hurt. The second run even had experienced escorts that drove away most piecemeal attacks. Even with advance warning and solid intel / advice they got through both times. A good example of organised teamwork in the MA. For those that are moaning about HQ's being dropped that is EXACTLY the way to show the handful of griefers that it won't be tolerated. An eye for an eye.
I just wish I had some of my squaddies to provide a better challenge one against 20 gets old sometimes. ;)
:salute ghi, hap et al.
Gawsh, Bruv. In spite of Fugi tisking you, I think you're a good example to follow. Now if only we can get the angry and disturbed to do so instead of logging because the game's so hard and unfair.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: DREDIOCK on May 10, 2015, 09:09:59 AM
Yes, but when a game feature drives away players it becomes counterproductive.
:salute
True. But the logic they use for being driven away. Effectively stomping their feet because they cant play with their favorite toy for a little while seems childish at best.
But then again. We are dealing with mostly adults here.
I've coached groups of kids, and Ive supervised adults. I've often found the kids act more maturely then their parents or adults as a whole
If you (anyone) are being driven away by ENY. The problem isnt the game. Its you. There is what. A couple of different threads on getting better? And probably dozens of similar threads over the course of the forums history.
Really wanna know how to get better? Fly the planes that arent effected by ENY. Fly them till you can get kills in them. You dont have to become great in them. Just good enough to become semi consistent. Once you have done that. Then take all you have just learned and go back to the more uber rides and apply it and you will almost feel like you are in cheat mode.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: captain1ma on May 10, 2015, 09:48:44 AM
20 eny, 2 sided war, and hq down for 3 hours....fun fun fun....not. Great way to spend $15 a month. Really don't think this game will get any better with AH3. Kinda wonder why numbers are dropping like flies :bhead
so back to the point..... I think that people should try stopping attacks on HQ, switch sides if ENY gets too bad, and just have fun in general. I think AH3 will be a big surprise to everyone but people need to just learn to find enjoyment and stop complaining about stupid things. you want to change it, get involved.
organize an attack in the MA get involved with the AVA guys join the FSO development team Join the Tuesday night Race week
so much to do, so little time to do it!!
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: ghi on May 10, 2015, 09:51:13 AM
Bish did well yesterday with ENY issues they revenged 2 provoked attacks on their HQ.
I couldn't really break into their mass b24 formations at 20k without getting hurt. The second run even had experienced escorts that drove away most piecemeal attacks. Even with advance warning and solid intel / advice they got through both times. A good example of organised teamwork in the MA. For those that are moaning about HQ's being dropped that is EXACTLY the way to show the handful of griefers that it won't be tolerated. An eye for an eye.
I just wish I had some of my squaddies to provide a better challenge one against 20 gets old sometimes. ;)
:salute ghi, hap et al.
:salute Ohh, well 49boob & Co just stirred up a fun fight, all good; revenge feels sweet; :D
I believe OP is right, the game is dying slowly, this large maps stalled for 7 days and particularly this one, with HQ down 24/7 are the last nails in the coffin ; I check MA many times 60-80 players lost on this large map, what for to play, nothing fun; But this lowers my cholesterol , I spend less time sitting in front of computer; there's always something good hidden in bad ; maybe HTC cares about our health and made it less addictive :rock :banana:
I've just read article posted today in "Independent", about gaming and other .... addictions;
"Porn and video game addiction are leading to 'masculinity crisis', says Stanford prison experiment psychologist " "A leading psychologist has warned that young men's brains are being 'digitally rewired' by unprecedented use of video games and pornography" ................ more here; http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/porn-and-video-game-addiction-are-leading-to-masculinity-crisis-says-stanford-prison-experiment-psychologist-10238211.html
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 10, 2015, 10:01:58 AM
True. But the logic they use for being driven away. Effectively stomping their feet because they cant play with their favorite toy for a little while seems childish at best.
But then again. We are dealing with mostly adults here.
I've coached groups of kids, and Ive supervised adults. I've often found the kids act more maturely then their parents or adults as a whole
If you (anyone) are being driven away by ENY. The problem isnt the game. Its you. There is what. A couple of different threads on getting better? And probably dozens of similar threads over the course of the forums history.
Really wanna know how to get better? Fly the planes that arent effected by ENY. Fly them till you can get kills in them. You dont have to become great in them. Just good enough to become semi consistent. Once you have done that. Then take all you have just learned and go back to the more uber rides and apply it and you will almost feel like you are in cheat mode.
I must not be making myself clear.
In any case, getting better in high ENY (inferior) planes isn't what I want to do. Many feel the same as evidenced by how the fights completely dry up when ENY gets triggered. Also, I am not a fan of having a low ENY ride and clubbing baby seals in their high ENY (inferior) planes. It works both ways and neither are particularly gratifying.
Many a great fight has been squashed by ENY flare ups. When numbers are low it has a devastating affect on gameplay to the benefit of nobody. :salute
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: glzsqd on May 10, 2015, 10:32:57 AM
In any case, getting better in high ENY (inferior) planes isn't what I want to do. Many feel the same as evidenced by how the fights completely dry up when ENY gets triggered. Also, I am not a fan of having a low ENY ride and clubbing baby seals in their high ENY (inferior) planes. It works both ways and neither are particularly gratifying.
Many a great fight has been squashed by ENY flare ups. When numbers are low it has a devastating affect on gameplay to the benefit of nobody. :salute
Over 100 different airframes to choose from, and people complain about not being able to use a handful of them. :rolleyes:
Over 100 different airframes to choose from and people whine about not being able to use a handful of them :rolleyes:
Eny
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 10, 2015, 10:44:10 AM
Gawsh, Bruv. In spite of Fugi tisking you, I think you're a good example to follow. Now if only we can get the angry and disturbed to do so instead of logging because the game's so hard and unfair.
I wasn't "tisking" Bruv, I was tisking the attitude displayed by the bish. Just because some A hole drops your HQ the right thing to do isn't to go out of your way to spoil other players fun. So now because some dork ran out to piss off the bish and take out their HQ..... which I can do nothing about... I get to suffer to along with the rest of my country.
Like Bruv I too did my time flying cap. I have 9 kills in a Ta last night. Not all of them at HQ but a few of them. Once low on fuel (I took 100% and a drop) I would fly a few sectors over and drop in on a few guys IF I could find them. and die chasing others around on the deck. The hours I spent circling around NE of HQ were sooooooo much funnnnnnn! :rolleyes:
I would gladly announce to the other teams any time I saw some A hole heading for one of their HQ's but like the calling out of "hidden" carriers I'm sure Hitech would call this cheating and suspend my account. We get to suffer though childish behavior more and more. Gone are the days a foe had to FIGHT for what a single player can now do.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Volron on May 10, 2015, 11:53:18 AM
No glzsqd, no. It's the end of the world when there is eny. Didn't you know this? :)
Yes, because dogfighting against weaker opponents (or none at all) is great for skill-building and really livens up the arena. :bhead
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 10, 2015, 12:24:38 PM
About ENY and stubbornness ....
Some people require pictures .... some like them ..... some don't (I think Snailman knows what I'm talkin' `bout).
Here is a color coded chart of all the fighters in AH arranged by ENY (low to high). Find your favorite ride and see where along the totem pole it sits. ENY lops off planes starting at the top. Having an alternate favorite, further down the totem pole, may serve you well if you are dead-set against switching chess pieces .... ever.
If you are so in love with one particular plane at the top end of the totem pole then you (and your squaddies) may do well exemplifying why there's an ENY to begin with and switch sides.
Regarding low numbers of players and what the community, individually and as a whole, can do about that:
Ok, no pictures here, you'll have to read and think. The 'can do' is simple, actually.
1. Patience. Logging on for anywhere from sixty seconds to ten minutes then logging off in a huff isn't helping you or anyone else. AH (like AW) has never been a quick game of checkers. It requires ..... patience (in the MA - moreso in events). Study the map. Even with the HQ down you can check roster, read buffer, etc. If you're in a squad (which I wholly encourage) then either be their point man or put your heads together and figure something out. And yes, jumping to another chesspiece *gasp* may be part of a good plan.
2. Events. Events? Yes events. Scheduled, planned events. Not your thing? Too bad. You'll have numbers, your HQ will be up. Well, now, it may be more challenging. You probably won't be in an arena that has the same settings as the MA. You will be expected to follow the rules and probably some orders. But if more players got addicted to events and also flew the MA (a lot of players refuse to do both) maybe - just maybe - you won't succumb to the above lack of patience/attention deficit problem.
3. Do you like this game or not? Do you know of anyone you like that might? Um, tell them ... and (just as important, if not moreso) .... help them if they give it a try. You got friends that already play, right? Introduce. If you have friends who succumbed to the patience thing or are acting all 'everything always sucks so I quit' like - help them get over that and get them back in the game. If you don't want to, then you're a major part of the problem.
4. Don't hang out in the forum peeing all over the floor and saying 'the problem is the game', making excuses about your behavior, rationalizing why you quit to everyone and trying to get them to, as well. That's not part of a productive discussion and certainly isn't helping anyone else who may enjoy being part of the community and trying to help the game thrive. And don't try to pretend it's unfair to your freedom of speech or something. This is HT's forum like it's HT's game. He wants it to be successful and fun probably more than you do (quite frankly, if you're trying to encourage other players to cancel their sub, then it's obvious). Any other game forum on the web wouldn't put up with that. So either show a little appreciation and bond productively, for a change, or take it somewhere else.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Lusche on May 10, 2015, 12:29:19 PM
Charts! In colour! :banana:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: The Fugitive on May 10, 2015, 12:39:53 PM
ENY was NOT designed to encourage switching sides to balance the teams. If it was we wouldn't have a 12 hour side switching rule. The 12 hour rule encourages people to NOT switch side so is the exact opposite of what you say ENY is about.
ENY is use to remove the better equipment for the team that has the numerical advantage.
More players with crappy equipment = less players with good equipment.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: glzsqd on May 10, 2015, 12:46:50 PM
great post Arlo :aok
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 10, 2015, 12:49:01 PM
ENY was NOT designed to encourage switching sides to balance the teams. If it was we wouldn't have a 12 hour side switching rule. The 12 hour rule encourages people to NOT switch side so is the exact opposite of what you say ENY is about.
ENY is use to remove the better equipment for the team that has the numerical advantage.
More players with crappy equipment = less players with good equipment.
ENY is a balancing feature, period. Whether players choose to change sides or fight with inferior planes is up to them. If HT didn't want to allow side switching you wouldn't have a 12 hour limitation, you would have no o-club to switch in.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 10, 2015, 12:49:46 PM
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skyyr on May 10, 2015, 12:50:05 PM
The problem with ENY is that it's directly tied to overall plane performance, instead of overall plane effectiveness/efficiency. Some may think it's balanced for the larger side to be limited to 25 ENY planes in a 5 vs 12 scenario. However, put someone like myself on the team of "5" and I can effectively engage half or more of the team because I have access to planes that greatly outperform theirs. It would be a slaughter.
ENY does the opposite of side-balancing; it encourages the average player to log off, be slaughtered, or spend a disproportionate amount of time climbing to offset the lack of plane performance, resulting in less overall action and therefore less gameplay for all involved sides.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 10, 2015, 12:57:47 PM
The problem with ENY is that it's directly tied to overall plane performance. Some may think it's balanced for the larger side to be limited to 25 ENY planes in a 5 vs 12 scenario. However, put someone like myself on the team of "5" and I can effectively engage half or more of the team because I have access to planes that greatly outperform theirs. It would be a slaughter.
ENY does the opposite of side-balancing; it encourages the average player to log off, be slaughtered, or spend a disproportionate amount of time climbing to offset the lack of plane performance, resulting in less overall action and therefore less gameplay for all involved sides.
How come you couldn't arrive at a conclusion that it makes a side with a numbers advantage have to continue the fight with lower performing aircraft or shed players to another side that has access to higher performing aircraft (which is exactly what it does and was designed to do)? What's with inventing some sort of odd conspiracy theory or attempting to make a fault out of design instead of behavior? You do know that Dale has been both a player and developer in this genre for years, right?
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Volron on May 10, 2015, 12:58:43 PM
You forgot the list bombers Arlo. The other part of the complaint is that one cannot take a base when eny is high. :aok
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 10, 2015, 01:00:10 PM
You forgot the list bombers Arlo. The other part of the complaint is that one cannot take a base when eny is high. :aok
ENY makes rolling bases harder? But ... but ... the design.
No, I didn't forget. More than one player has posted that their concern is fighter on fighter action. :)
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: glzsqd on May 10, 2015, 01:06:20 PM
the Difference in performance is not that great from 5-25 eny fighters. Hell even at its worst anyone can still fly one of the best low altitude fighters in the game, the LA5.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skyyr on May 10, 2015, 01:09:47 PM
How come you couldn't arrive at a conclusion that it makes a side with a numbers advantage have to continue the fight with lower performing aircraft or shed players to another side that has access to higher performing aircraft (which is exactly what it does and was designed to do)? What's with inventing some sort of odd conspiracy theory or attempting to make a fault out of design instead of behavior? You do know that Dale has been both a player and developer in this genre for years, right?
Conspiracy theory? Faulting the game design? Project your fallacies elsewhere.
Take for example, the P-51. The P-51D is 5 ENY, but it fails to perform at the same air-to-air level that other 5 ENY aircraft do. It's ENY is set at a flat 5 because it is capable of ground attack and decent air-to-air performance. Take away ground attack and it's a 10, maybe 15 ENY aircraft; current ENY system does not address an aircraft's effectiveness in different roles.
So in other words, ENY is a flat rating for a multi-aspect game mechanic. By nature, it's not going to accurately balance air-to-air combat or air-to-ground combat, because it doesn't discriminate separately.
It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of logic. Players who approach ACM (and by extension, Aces High) with regard to Strategic Dominance gaming theory (as I do) will find such a system VERY easy to abuse for advantage... and I commonly do. It's the nature of ACM when practiced in a textbook definition.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 10, 2015, 01:17:28 PM
Well said Fugitive and Skyyr.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 10, 2015, 01:20:46 PM
Well that went from strange to bizarre fast. You think the 51d's ENY is unfair. :LOL
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skyyr on May 10, 2015, 01:23:03 PM
Double-post.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skyyr on May 10, 2015, 01:30:56 PM
I've seldom seen players in this game genre confuse tactics and strategy, but it's been known to happen.
Strategy in Aces High (and all air combat sims), in the context of air-to-air combat, is ACM. There are literal textbooks of info written about it. We know the strategies available to both sides fully. Therefore, the only variance is the tactics and how they are employed, specifically through available aircraft.
When your tactics are limited due to predetermined bias for one side to have inferior aircraft (what ENY is), the tactics themselves are inferior.
How is your taking the discussion in an odd direction and my questioning that a 'red herring' on my part?
Because my argument takes the premise that ENY "balances" and shows how it can result in an imbalanced situation. Whether or not you intended to discuss aircraft attributes does not mean they are irrelevant to your comments regarding game balancing.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Latrobe on May 10, 2015, 01:50:53 PM
I don't know about you guys but I follow the "Pipz Dominance Gaming Theory". It's a highly complex strategy of flying really crappy planes and being awesome that only the greatest of pilots have ever been able to master. :D
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: glzsqd on May 10, 2015, 01:59:40 PM
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: glzsqd on May 10, 2015, 02:34:33 PM
16) has a 69).
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: pembquist on May 10, 2015, 02:44:43 PM
When I read all this...this..complaining? I feel like if I was Hitech I'd just shut the game down permanently so you all would see how good you have it. If you want to fly WW2 combat what else is there? War Thunder, World of Warplanes, IL2 with mods. Would you be happier in that universe? It would be great if Hitech Creations was a little better at communicating with the BBS but that takes money.
Look at the crapfest that IL2 COD was, the mod that makes it decent was done by FREE LABOR. I gotta say, people seem a little spoiled at times.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 10, 2015, 02:50:56 PM
When I read all this...this..complaining? I feel like if I was Hitech I'd just shut the game down permanently so you all would see how good you have it. If you want to fly WW2 combat what else is there? War Thunder, World of Warplanes, IL2 with mods. Would you be happier in that universe? It would be great if Hitech Creations was a little better at communicating with the BBS but that takes money.
Look at the crapfest that IL2 COD was, the mod that makes it decent was done by FREE LABOR. I gotta say, people seem a little spoiled at times.
Asking for patches to plug holes in gamey exploits is being "spoiled"? :headscratch:
I will remind you this game isn't free. If it were then perhaps you would have a point.
Also, plenty of people give of their time for free to improve AH.
:salute
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 10, 2015, 04:06:12 PM
Strategy, when it comes to air combat (sim or real life), generally involves attaining long term goals (winning a battle or war - in game terms, winning the game).
Tactics can win a dogfight. Strategy can win the game.
The main difference being the individual versus the team.
Granted, tactics can (and in many cases probably should) involve pairs or flights. But this is still a tactical issue. While some may contend that strategy is nothing but several tactical engagements rolled together to yeild an overall result, that is not always the case.
Strategy can be illustrated by the attack on Pearl Harbor or Bombing Raid on Ploesti. On a grander scale it can be illustrated by the entire 8th Air Force plan on how to conduct war in the skies over Europe.
There have been books on both tactics and strategy. One of the favorite books known by most of the players in this community was written by a gentleman named Shaw who has been a guest at conventions, at times and even an Air Warrior player.
You'll find a lot of his material in this Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers (BFM - part of ACM - again ... tactics).
What you reference: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_dominance involves strategy games where a single player takes on the role and control of an entire side.
Anyhoo .... this is really neither here nor there unless you want to discuss how a team wins the game (in Aces Hgh) and not your preferred method of dogfighting.
Back to ENY - your claim appears to be that the 'problem' with ENY is that it's directly tied to overall plane performance, instead of overall plane effectiveness/efficiency. I'm not sure how that ties in to players refusing to switch sides yet preferring to log off, entirely, because they have just one plane they like to fly or because they are devoted (individually or as a squad) to playing for one imaginary chesspiece nation. The ENY attributed to each individual plane has nothing to do with that, whatsoever.
Again, ENY was designed as a balancer (whether you think the values used are fair and accurate or not).
This isn't a new thing in AH (it existed when player numbers were at peak):
Aces High Bulletin Board » Help and Support Forums » Help and Training » ENY Value? « Reply #2 on: November 03, 2006, 06:45:03 »
When you check in HANGAR, each plane has a ENY value. The lower the ENY, the "higher performance" the plane is.
The amount of perks you get awarded for a kill also depends on the ENY value of both planes. The higher your own planes ENY and the lower the opponents, the more perk points you get. Also into play comes the perk multiplier which gets calculated from how many people on your country are in flight as compared to the other countries.
ENY *limit* was installed for side balancing reasons. Above a certain total number of people online, the limit takes effect if one country highly outnumbers the other two. At one point, HT posted the formule used to calculate the limit. The stronger the imbalance, the higher the "ENY limit" ie you cant up planes below a certain ENY value.
This means the country that has the numerical advantage gets a "handicap" in plane choice. Also, not being able to fly the plane of your choice makes people either change country or log alltogether, which in turn helps evening the numbers.
As you can imagine, the higher the total number of players, the better the system works (for mathematical reasons... one single player doesnt make that much of a difference). With the new arena setup, the number of players per arena is lower, closer on the edge of minimum numbers needed to make the system (as it is now) work. This might lead to extreme turnouts of eny limit, which is cause of lot of gripes - of course. HiTech repeatedly has stated that hes working on tweaks to make the system more effective and smooth again.
That some sort of side balancing tool is *needed* was shown in the EWA, where the eny limiter was turned off for a while, resulting in 40 players on one country beating on 12 players (on *both* other countries!) with perked rides.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As you see in the above post, HiTech monitors ENY and tweaks it as need be.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: icepac on May 10, 2015, 04:53:40 PM
Dang arlo.........you didn't leave anything else for us to add.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 10, 2015, 04:58:46 PM
Dang arlo.........you didn't leave anything else for us to add.
If it has to do with being wrong I would say you're right. No doubt party line true believer stuff that misses the target. Per par.
Skyyr and Fugitive nailed it. Arlo cannot rebut. They are right and he is wrong. (It is Groundhog Day. You know what he will say before he writes it. -yawn- )
ENY and the 12-hour rule are in opposition to one another and drive DOWN numbers. Maybe with a full arena they didn't cause problems but in an empty one they are a disaster. Throw in HQ griefing and well... "Fun as watching grass grow."
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: ImADot on May 10, 2015, 05:46:01 PM
It seems to me that that biggest factor in not finding fights is the majority of the current player base doesn't want to fight.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 10, 2015, 05:52:37 PM
If it has to do with being wrong I would say you're right. No doubt party line true believer stuff that misses the target. Per par.
Skyyr and Fugitive nailed it. Arlo cannot rebut. They are right and he is wrong. (It is Groundhog Day. You know what he will say before he writes it. -yawn- )
ENY and the 12-hour rule are in opposition to one another and drive DOWN numbers. Maybe with a full arena they didn't cause problems but in an empty one they are a disaster. Throw in HQ griefing and well... "Fun as watching grass grow."
For someone who's ignoring me and supposedly not reading my posts you sure like to claim you know them well. Honestly, you couldn't grasp the meaning or intent of my posts before you were 'ignoring' me. This is something personal to you. I actually had some hope for you when you joined this game and community (though it was based on nothing more than your choice of forum name with a measure of hope that you would at least honor it even if you couldn't live up to it). As things are, though, you've become one of those pizzed off non-players that hang around the forum and act like they know what's good for the game and community but exemplify something that is actually toxic.
Is that what you imagined you're ignoring? :D
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 10, 2015, 06:10:34 PM
^^^^^^ Stalker. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Canspec on May 10, 2015, 06:12:37 PM
Why are so many people quoting wikipedia in here these days.......Wikipedia is not considered a credible or authoritative source for information, and yet it is constantly quoted on these bulletin boards as being "what must be" information....kind of sad really..... :old:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Dragon Tamer on May 10, 2015, 06:16:12 PM
And now rule #15 has been invoked.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 10, 2015, 06:18:59 PM
Why are so many people quoting wikipedia in here these days.......Wikipedia is not considered a credible or authoritative source for information, and yet it is constantly quoted on these bulletin boards as being "what must be" information....kind of sad really..... :old:
Says who?
Depends on the sources cited within each article.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skyyr on May 10, 2015, 06:24:47 PM
ACM stands for "air combat maneuvering." This involves tactics and not strategy.
...
As you see in the above post, HiTech monitors ENY and tweaks it as need be.
I'm glad you took the time to compile this... assortment of information. The disconnect we have here is that you're defining ACM as a tactic as part of a strategy to win the map (in that regard, ACM would not be actually even be a tactic, but rather a subset of air superiority/supremacy - the actual tactic). So no, ACM would not even be a tactic in your example. That said, even though it's flawed, I understand your core argument; that is to say, ACM augments a bigger picture or goal. Yes, in that scenario, you're correct.
However, ACM can also be a strategy (and it is), and its tactics can be in the form of the maneuvers that make up ACM. This all depends on how you define what the overarching goal is.
For example, if our goal is winning the map, then air superiority is a tactic by which we can achieve it. Other tactics would be superior ground control, removal of enemy resources, etc. However, the majority of players here aren't discussing how ENY affects winning the war, they're complaining that ENY disrupts the balance to aerial combat and makes it less-balanced. In that light (and in the scope of this discussion), our main goal is ensuring that tactics remain valid for both tactics; ergo, the goal being discussed IS the augmenting of ACM and ensuring that both sides are balanced so that all ACM options remain available and unbiased. If we ensure that neither side has an inherent advantage when considering air combat maneuvering, then both sides will have balanced air-to-air engagements, separate from the ground war or any other game aspect.
The problem with ENY is not the overall balance as it affects winning the map (one might argue that it's very effective in that regard due to the continuous stalemates we appear to have on several maps); the issue is that the overall ENY solution does not fairly address air-to-air combat effectiveness, which is ultimately what this thread is about.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 10, 2015, 06:28:08 PM
It's kinda funny how some forum trolls think that placing other forum members on ignore means that their posts are now immune from rebuttal from that person. No, V, if you post on the AH forum I'm allowed to rebut your posts as much as anyone and, no, that's not stalking .... it's
The disconnect we have here is that you're defining ACM as a tactic as part of a strategy to win the map
Um, no. I'm the one that understands the difference between 'tactics' and 'strategy.' I was explaining to you that your use of terms is wrong. Air superiority (air supremacy) is where one side holds complete control over the opposing force and is, as such, a desired strategic goal. But you seem to be confusing that term with ACM, which is another thing altogether. ACM is not strategy (although if you want to pretend it is, whatever makes you comfortable). ACM is (again) 'air combat maneuvering.' There's not only books written about it, the term is all over the internet with explanation.
And ENY is a balancer, plain and simple. It is not related to ACM, tactics or strategy. It is a game tool.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Someguy63 on May 10, 2015, 06:49:03 PM
So how should we revamp the ENY system in order for it to fairly address the effectiveness of air-to-air combat.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Tilt on May 10, 2015, 06:51:17 PM
The objective is worked toward by the adoption of a winning strategy, which in turn is supported by the adoption of tactics, which in turn are supported by material and personnel assets. The quality of the personnel assets may be ( in the case of an air war) defined by the proficiency they display when performing ACM. The quality of the material assets may be defined by the potential lethality of a plane when all its combined characteristics are considered.
In AH this material asset is subject a handicap related to the theoretical balance of numbers of personnel assets between sides. This is called ENY.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skyyr on May 10, 2015, 06:52:46 PM
Um, no. I'm the one that understands the difference between 'tactics' and 'strategy.' I was explaining to you that your use of terms is wrong. Air superiority (air supremacy) is where one side holds complete control over the opposing force and is, as such, a desired strategic goal. But you seem to be confusing that term with ACM, which is another thing altogether. ACM is not strategy (although if you want to pretend it is, whatever makes you comfortable). ACM is (again) 'air combat maneuvering.' There's not only books written about it, the term is all over the internet with explanation.
And ENY is a balancer, plain and simple. It is not related to ACM, tactics or strategy. It is a game tool.
You can define a goal to be anything; the fact you don't understand this shows a lack of understanding for the entire post your previously wrote.
The players are complaining of a lack of balanced play when ENY hits, combined with further negative mechanics when the HQ is down. If we set the goal on making sure that neither side has an advantage when ACM is considered, then the ability to balance ACM for both sides (and therefore a focus on ACM) functionally becomes the goal.
Further, in a pure air-to-air victory context, ACM and its related combat components are the only strategy. At the end of the day, the majority complaining here are complaining about the air-to-air combat. ACM is the only strategy by which air combat can be won (barring anti-air mechanisms, which we do not truly have here).
The irony here, of course, is that you're arguing to be an authority on something that can very easily be proven in the game. I've fought you, and your skills did not seem to align with the level of proficiency you seem to imply through your rather long and innocuous posts. Now, I could have caught you on an off day, and I'd be more than happy to go to the DA with you so you could show me the extent of your skills. I'm 99.9% sure I know how this will end for you, but I'm willing to let this play out in the name of fair chances.
And no, this isn't some sort of measuring contest. You see, ACM is a unique field of study in that those who can speak authoritatively to it have to have a full understanding of it (example: you cannot argue the effectiveness of how well a Ta 152 stall fights against hard data showing otherwise if you can't demonstrate it yourself firsthand). It is quite literally a combat science. So, for you to claim that you understand the difference between strategies and tactics as they apply to ACM is quite entertaining for me, as I've studied ACM for 16 years across numerous sims and used to write ACM articles for a sim site for several of those years; I've also read the majority of air combat reference books and everything I've encountered, in addition to my own experience, contradicts the blanket statements you've made regarding tactics and strategies. Both are dynamic, and none can be defined until they are put into action towards a defined goal.
Point being, you're painting yourself as an authoritative subject on ACM (albeit quoting Wikipedia), so I'd like to see your experience in action (well, see it again and see if it's any different than last time). Sound good? ;)
The objective is worked toward by the adoption of a winning strategy, which in turn is supported by the adoption of tactics, which in turn are supported by material and personnel assets. The quality of the personnel assets may be ( in the case of an air war) defined by the proficiency they display when performing ACM. The quality of the material assets may be defined by the potential lethality of a plane when all its combined characteristics are considered.
In AH this material asset is subject a handicap related to the theoretical balance of numbers of personnel assets between sides. This is called ENY.
And that is the core underlying problem. The ENY system assumes a blanket level of play with a blanket level of player skill. For an average player, this sometimes works. For players who are above average, or at least understand the dynamics of ACM, this is blatantly biased and very easy to abuse.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: guncrasher on May 10, 2015, 07:13:57 PM
The players are complaining of a lack of balanced play when ENY hits, combined with further negative mechanics when the HQ is down. If we set the goal on making sure that neither side has an advantage when ACM is considered.
Not really. The players are complaining that they don't get to fly their favorite planes when ENY kicks in. The players further complain that when the HQ is down they can't find a fight. The actual exasperation factor is low numbers. Somehow, players aren't understanding that logging off in exasperation isn't going to make numbers rise. What you're trying to spin that into sounds like you're trying to impress us all with some words you picked up along the way that make you sound authoritative in this discussion (while ignoring all the simple basics of).
Further, in a pure air-to-air context, ACM and its related combat components are the only strategy. At the end of the day, the majority complaining here are complaining about the air-to-air combat. ACM is the only strategy by which air combat can be won (barring anti-aircraft mechanisms, which we do not truly have here).
ACM is not strategy. ACM is tactics. You can use it when you're attempting to be a part of your team's strategy. But strategy is actually the plan a team undertakes to win a map (or an Air Force uses to win a war). I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.
The irony here, of course, is that you're arguing to be an authority on something that can very easily be proven in the game. I've fought you, and your skills were absolutely lacking. Now, I could have caught you on an off day, and I'd be more than happy to go to the DA with you so you could show me the extent of your skills. I'm 99.9% sure I know how this will end for you, but I'm willing to let this play out in the name of fair chances.
And no, this isn't some sort of measuring contest. You see, ACM is a unique field of study in that those who can speak authoritatively to it have to have a full understanding of it (example: you cannot argue the effectiveness of how well a Ta 152 stall fights against hard data otherwise if you can't demonstrate it yourself). It is quite literally a combat science. So, for you to claim that you understand the difference between strategies and tactics as they apply to ACM is quite entertaining for me, as I've studied ACM for 16 years across numerous sims and used to write ACM articles for a sim site for 6 of those years.
Sound good? I'd love to see your experience in action. ;)
Thats a lot of wordsmithing just to basically end up challenging me to the DA because in 16 years of 'studying ACM' you don't know the difference between the terms 'tactics' and 'strategy' and you think beating me in a duel will mean you won't ever have to admit that. I had fun the day that four of you fought me and another guy who kept taking off from a field you were capping. Honestly, you were the only one of the four that could shoot us down without it taking a dozen passes. Very good. But that will never make tactics = strategy anymore than it will make you good at writing ACM articles even after you double your '16 years of impressing others by writing about ACM or any other number of terms you apply randomly in a discussion.'
Yeah, I'll duel ya. But you better let me do the post-writeup so it'll make sense.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Tilt on May 10, 2015, 07:20:36 PM
So how should we revamp the ENY system in order for it to fairly address the effectiveness of air-to-air combat.
I have never really seen ENY achieve anything other than massage the opinion that there should be some sort of handicap when there is a side misbalance.
The idea that ENY actually limits a sides "success" when these numbers are in play is also false.
Allthough when we have local small combats ENY may deny a player his preferred ride. Which may disadvantage him in a one v one engagement.
The idea that there is a mass movement between sides due to ENY i that rebalances numbers is in my opinion false.
Indeed side switching is throttled by a time delay to make it quite tedious. This originally to limit migration to the winning side prior reset. Now de motivated by a time required on side prior to reset before perks are earned.
Further in my opinion there is not a real problem if sides are unbalanced. One side wins the others lose.... However the combat/game play endures.....
Actually the most times that numbers misbalance spoil game play is due to local horde tendencies. Not so prevalent now but we still see local horde activity that may or may not be a function of the inter side misbalance.....
E.g. Three sides each with 80 air borne players may find that one side is able to mass 40 players to attrit then attack then cap then capture field after field etc. if the opposing side is only motivated to put some 10 to 20 players locally agin this " horde" then there would seem to be a local inbalance.
In this instance ENY is useless..... And rightly so. If one side organises itself well then it should enjoy the full reward.
If one side has twice the numbers of others then they should be able to employ this to full advantage I don't see ENY bringing any thing except a limitation of choice.
The one exception to this is logistics ( and HQ vulnerability) we would not want this higher number side to simply flatten all the strat and spoil game play from the lower numbered side due to poor access to combat.
I would suggest that Logistic re supply should be harder ( slower) for sides with more fields and faster for sides with less fields.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 10, 2015, 07:28:10 PM
The idea that there is a mass movement between sides due to ENY i that rebalances numbers is in my opinion false.
That's because players are apparently more stubborn the the orneriest breed of mule. They just aren't gonna do it, even though the design is plain as day (maybe even because the design is plain as day). That being said, I still say make overwhelming hordes have to win a map with lower end gear. Those crying and logging off might grow a pair if they aren't enabled and coddled so much (meaning the whole community could use a shot of John Wayne). :D
P.S. Not that I don't mind your suggestions. But the larger problem appears to be too much estrogen in the air or sumpin'.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Someguy63 on May 10, 2015, 07:32:30 PM
My chart from an earlier post. If I were to use it to determine the plane I'll fly as my team starts outnumbering the other side(s) and toys begin to get confiscated would probably look like this (bear in mind my favorite is the F4U-1A which is ENY 12, so I'll start at that section of the totem pole:
1. F4U-1a (ENY 12) 2. F4U-1 (ENY 25) - * 95% chance if ENY locks the -1a and the -1 is available 3. Seafire Mk IIc (ENY 15 [Eh, I'm a bit allergic to Axis rides `ceptn when my squad flies them in a scenario or FSO)* 4. P-47 D-40 (ENY 20)* 5. Spit IX (ENY 20)* 6. FM2 (ENY 25)* 7. P-47 D-25 (ENY 25)* 8. Mosquito VI (ENY 30) 9. P-47 D-11 (ENY 35) 10. Spitfire V (ENY 35) 11. P-40F (ENY 40) 12. C-202 (ENY 40)
That is, after I try to talk the squad into switching sides and, for some reason, that doesn't happen. If I'm not flying with the squad, i'velikely just switched.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skyyr on May 10, 2015, 08:11:19 PM
Um, I'm not trying to define anything but the terms you're using in an effort to get you to use them right or to use the right ones.
Not really. The players are complaining that they don't get to fly their favorite planes when ENY kicks in. The players further complain that when the HQ is down they can't find a fight. The actual exasperation factor is low numbers. Somehow, players aren't understanding that logging off in exasperation isn't going to make numbers rise. What you're trying to spin that into sounds like you're trying to impress us all with some words you picked up along the way that make you sound authoritative in this discussion (while ignoring all the simple basics of).
ACM is not strategy. ACM is tactics. You can use it when you're attempting to be a part of your team's strategy. But strategy is actually the plan a team undertakes to win a map (or an Air Force uses to win a war). I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.
Thats a lot of wordsmithing just to basically end up challenging me to the DA because in 16 years of 'studying ACM' you don't know the difference between the terms 'tactics' and 'strategy' and you think beating me in a duel will mean you won't ever have to admit that. I had fun the day that four of you fought me and another guy who kept taking off from a field you were capping. Honestly, you were the only one of the four that could shoot us down without it taking a dozen passes. Very good. But that will never make tactics = strategy anymore than it will make you good at writing ACM articles even after you double your '16 years of impressing others by writing about ACM or any other number of terms you apply randomly in a discussion.'
Yeah, I'll duel ya. But you better let me do the post-writeup so it'll make sense.
Hypothetically, let's say we go into the DA together (as you have accepted): what will be your strategy to win? You'll find very quickly if it's not correct employment of ACM, you'll lose.
You see, you're trying to define ACM as tactics based on how ACM fits into the goal (or strategy) of air superiority. ACM is a tactic of air superiority/supremacy, but it is a strategy in itself. There are tactics that comprise ACM, such as offensive maneuvers, defensive maneuvers, etc. You're trying to claim that because ACM is a tactic of air superiority, it is therefore always a tactic, which is a flawed thought process. However, there's really no point in arguing this further for either one of us, as it's counterproductive and becoming a offshoot of the actual discussion. If you still disagree, then I'll agree to disagree and leave it as that.
That being said, when would you like to go to the DA? Tonight? Let me know - we can discuss specifics via PM.
-=S=-
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skyyr on May 10, 2015, 08:13:56 PM
So how should we revamp the ENY system in order for it to fairly address the effectiveness of air-to-air combat.
I think much of it should be based on E/M diagrams, assigning similar planes similar values. For an easy and straightforward fix, it's honestly that simple.
Going further, you could add ENY values to weapon loadouts and ordnance options. That way, the base plane has an ENY value based purely on air-to-air performance, while reserving the option to restrict usage of certain loadouts or ground attack options.
Hypothetically, let's say we go into the DA together (as you have accepted): what will be your strategy to win? You'll find very quickly if it's not correct employment of ACM, you'll lose.
You see, you're trying to define ACM as tactics based on how ACM fits into the goal (or strategy) of air superiority. ACM is a tactic of air superiority/supremacy, but it is a strategy in itself. You're trying to claim that because ACM is a tactic of air superiority, it is therefore always a tactic, which is a flawed thought process. However, there's really no point in arguing this further for either one of us, as it's counterproductive and becoming a offshoot of the actual discussion. If you still disagree, then I'll agree to disagree and leave it as that.
That being said, when would you like to go to the DA? Tonight? Let me know - we can discuss specifics via PM.
-=S=-
Yay. Been awhile since I've been challenged to an honor duel because I hurt someone's feelings on the forum. Gonna hafta wait til next weekend, though. And win or lose, you're not good at defending your failure in terminology. I will only charge a flat $50.00 editing fee per article you write for us.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skyyr on May 10, 2015, 08:27:58 PM
Yay. Been awhile since I've been challenged to an honor duel because I hurt someone's feelings on the forum. Gonna hafta wait til next weekend, though. And win or lose, you're not good at defending your failure in terminology. I will only charge a flat $50.00 editing fee per article you write for us.
You've not hurt my feelings in the least, nor do I believe in rather antiquated concepts of "honor" in a silly video game; I simply enjoy separating the people who talk about ACM vs those who actually know it. I'm rather looking forward to openly discovering which camp you fit into (or, more accurately, seeing if you still remain in the former). You can fake knowledge of air combat with a keyboard on a forum and hide behind fallacies disguised as wit, but no amount of Googling or stick-stirring can save you when it actually comes time to fight someone in the air. ;)
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Gman on May 10, 2015, 08:34:55 PM
Let me get this straight - when you beat Arlo in the DA (and you will), are you going to claim that due to that victory, your argument regarding whether or not ACM falls into "tactics" or "strategy", or whatever minutia this has been about, is won Skyyr?
Please tell me that isn't the "plan". Demonstrating that you're better than Arlo at ACM doesn't prove that your points about how ACM/tactics/strategy/gaming theory are correct, and his are wrong. I have no dog in that fight, I'm just saying that making statements that "you're going to separate him from those who can talk about ACM, and those that can do it", makes little sense, and only proves that you're better at ACM, and has nothing to do with a debate regarding terminology or any of the other stuff being debated.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skyyr on May 10, 2015, 08:53:56 PM
Let me get this straight - when you beat Arlo in the DA (and you will), are you going to claim that due to that victory, your argument regarding whether or not ACM falls into "tactics" or "strategy", or whatever minutia this has been about, is won Skyyr?
Please tell me that isn't the "plan". Demonstrating that you're better than Arlo at ACM doesn't prove that your points about how ACM/tactics/strategy/gaming theory are correct, and his are wrong. I have no dog in that fight, I'm just saying that making statements that "you're going to separate him from those who can talk about ACM, and those that can do it", makes little sense, and only proves that you're better at ACM, and has nothing to do with a debate regarding terminology.
No; simply put, we've reached a stalemate where Arlo is using a definition for the specific application of ACM as it pertains to current military strategy, whereas I'm discussing it as an isolated field of science/combat (as it pertains purely to air-to-air combat, as in Aces High). Instead of simply acknowledging the difference and that we're discussing different topics entirely, Arlo is attempting to prove a point by going further into the nuances of air combat, much further than he has the understanding of based on what I've seen from him first hand.
Now, I could argue ad naseum and cite air combat text books (chiefly the premise for how Robert Shaw devised the concept of ACM to begin with), as well as cite the kernel requirements as outlined in Good Strategy/Bad Strategy (http://www.amazon.com/Good-Strategy-Bad-Difference-Matters/dp/0307886239) and prove that ACM readily meets the definition requirements of a strategy. However, what would that yield? Several more hours at the keyboard? What are we actually discussing at this point?
And like I said, I'm not interested in being right; I've already posted that I can simply agree to disagree. In classic Arlo fashion, my reply was met with a straw man fallacy.
At the end of the day, we're discussing ACM and how ENY affects it. It has devolved into someone claiming knowledge of nuances of ACM and how it's classified and categorized, etc. The thing is, ACM is not something you can fully grasp, or at least speak to authoritatively, without a decent level of firsthand experience with it. At the level being discussed here, it requires a decent level of experience (and by extension, would assume gained skill), at least in regards to strategy. My challenge was to see if this skill was present, because if it's not, it would then appear to simply be a matter of someone using a keyboard and Google to try to prove a non-existent point.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: guncrasher on May 10, 2015, 09:13:00 PM
So how should we revamp the ENY system in order for it to fairly address the effectiveness of air-to-air combat.
WE aren't going to do anything, this is all on HTC :D
Arlo and Skyrr can go back and forth all they want complicating the issues at hand.
With the lower numbers in the areas ENY is much more debilitating and "bouncing" around than when we had the higher numbers where it fluctuated much less as a few people logged in or out.
The large maps also, with the smaller numbers hurt game play by allowing the players to spread out to far and so have much less contact and so much less combat.
The issue with HQ is made more unbearable by the fact that with lower numbers there are less players to guard it, or failing that resupply it.
Add in the human nature of people who like to "just piss people off" and we get to have as much fun as watching grass grow.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Vraciu on May 11, 2015, 12:09:59 AM
WE aren't going to do anything, this is all on HTC :D
Arlo and Skyrr can go back and forth all they want complicating the issues at hand.
With the lower numbers in the areas ENY is much more debilitating and "bouncing" around than when we had the higher numbers where it fluctuated much less as a few people logged in or out.
The large maps also, with the smaller numbers hurt game play by allowing the players to spread out to far and so have much less contact and so much less combat.
The issue with HQ is made more unbearable by the fact that with lower numbers there are less players to guard it, or failing that resupply it.
Add in the human nature of people who like to "just piss people off" and we get to have as much fun as watching grass grow.
That sums it up nicely--again. Never mind as someone stated previously the effect the 12-hour rule has on this as well. With these spikey number fluctuations one can side switch for balance and wind up in the same position they were in before they switched--only to be stuck there for ten hours. Result: log off.
Any one of these factors is a disincentive. Combined? Fuhgetaboutit.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Bruv119 on May 11, 2015, 01:39:57 AM
Gawsh, Bruv. In spite of Fugi tisking you, I think you're a good example to follow. Now if only we can get the angry and disturbed to do so instead of logging because the game's so hard and unfair.
well fugi completely missed my point. At a time of day when people are really complaining about player numbers we had 55 bish vs 40 rooks and someone said hey guys 15 sets of b24's in this grid your like christ get me the bat phone and lets do this! :eek:
whilst scenario style raids are not everyones cup of tea at that time of day it doesn't happen often and the only motivating reason for it was because 2x rooks then 4x rooks griefed the Bish HQ. Not supporting any agenda I just thought it was good action for an hour or so and proving the OP there is two sides to every coin.
I guess in prime time it is becoming a default gameplay type and I can also see why you guys hate that so much. Obviously hardening the HQ is the easiest answer but that is HT's call.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Bruv119 on May 11, 2015, 01:49:30 AM
I would suggest that Logistic re supply should be harder ( slower) for sides with more fields and faster for sides with less fields.
great idea there Tilt!
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Wizz on May 11, 2015, 05:24:58 AM
Getting closer to the day FineTime is rocking 3 accounts.
3 well timed strat formations.
3 well timed base defenders.
Giggidy giggidy.....
no worries no side switching on these accounts. Im just tired of depending on others 100% of the time for most of what i do. This way i can do my own thing whenever i want.
I do hope HTC addresses you folks on your concerns. Little nerve wracking coming to bbs everyday and reading these long complaint threads in the GF. :salute
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 11, 2015, 07:32:50 AM
It seems to me that that biggest factor in not finding fights is the majority of the current player base doesn't want to fight unless they can run away or have 3 other friendlies help gang you
Fixed that 4 you. :aok
I don't think ENY in planes are really that out of wack. I think a P51D should be a 5 ENY plane. IMO almost everyone who flies it uses its one advantage to BnZ and run away from fights. The plane really is the most balanced fighter in the game. It can do everything almost above average, especially climb higher, further, and faster and than almost any other plane. It really is quite easy to be effective in it if you know the game and fly the plane properly.
I think perking Ord or perking the amount of bombers (with laser bullets) you can up with should be an option. Perks are just too easy to get and save in AH. I got 5000 perks ( what's the point) I could fly a 262 all month and prolly only lose 3-400 perks. There just isnt much use for them. So maybe making ord and an extra bomber perkable in order to make it more challenging instead of Wizz up ruining everyone's fun because he has nothing to worry about losing ( time/effort specificaly).
The eny in planes I think are fairly matched for the most part. If you played this game as long as I have and really understand (almost) every planes strength and weakness, you will understand why planes are gauged the way they are. Some are simply out matched in the MA. We are playing in an arena where you can up planes in 3 different time zones of the war, IRL you wouldn't have such an easy opportunity. That is why some older planes are 25 eny where as newer planes are 5 eny. They just completely out match older airplanes that shouldn't be fighting each other to begin with. But that is the challenge and point to gaining more perkies flying a more difficult (out of matched) plane in the Late war. Even a P51 v 109g14, the p51 almost is always able to run away from the fight. The p51 will give any 109K fight a challenge in 1v1 and if a P51 is on point, it should end up being a BnZ match by the p51. The p51 can out dive these planes and normally in most cases typically fly at a higher alt to begin with because of the 109s lack of diving ability. That is why their ENYs are so much higher compared to say a F4u1D just because it can dive quickly and turn well.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: rvflyer on May 11, 2015, 12:13:23 PM
If Warbirds was such a great game (which it was not) why did everyone abandon it?
No, he is wrong. In Warbirds we switched for balance all the time.
Even when one side was rolling the map it was more fun than this. The lines moved. Here they are stagnant. And on the rare days an offensive gets some steam the stupid ENY kicks in and shuts the fight down.
Three-sided giant maps are a snooze fest.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Max on May 11, 2015, 12:18:15 PM
The creators of Warbirds flew the coop and started their own game. That and the fact that Wild Bill is a dick :devil
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 11, 2015, 12:20:32 PM
4. Don't hang out in the forum peeing all over the floor and saying 'the problem is the game', making excuses about your behavior, rationalizing why you quit to everyone and trying to get them to, as well. That's not part of a productive discussion and certainly isn't helping anyone else who may enjoy being part of the community and trying to help the game thrive. And don't try to pretend it's unfair to your freedom of speech or something. This is HT's forum like it's HT's game. He wants it to be successful and fun probably more than you do (quite frankly, if you're trying to encourage other players to cancel their sub, then it's obvious). Any other game forum on the web wouldn't put up with that. So either show a little appreciation and bond productively, for a change, or take it somewhere else.
+1 Too big for signature material LOL
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Mister Fork on May 11, 2015, 12:35:53 PM
Hell, same guy you're quoting abandoned AH, as well.
:lol
Yep. HawkerMKII/Vraciu et al - this 'issue' has been part of playing online WW2 sims for around 20+ years now. One or two sides walloping a common side which reduces its capabilities. So what? It's part of the game. If you don't like it...well, there is an alternative.
If you're tired of the 3 sided war but like the 'evenly' matched fights, the AvA is the place to go. I know most of you think it's a ghost town most of the time, but it was made for those tired of the Main Arena gameplay. I'm also not going to sugar-coat the AvA - the learning curve is steep for newbs, but for a season's MA player who has also done S.E.A., this is a great place to fly and get the 1vs1 or 2vs2 fights - or take a bomber safely up and not be hoarded by 20 ME-163's or 262's when you fly over their HQ or strategic target.
When I first started in the Combat Theatre, we always had 10-20 guys flying during the day and up to 50-100 at night. And it was a lot of fun with the classic and historical match-ups. As admins, we tried to balance the arena plane enabled to ensure it wasn't too one-sided. That was our job as AvA volunteer admin. Our vision of the AvA/CT was to put the Aces High pilot in a historical match-up and emulate the situation Axis and Allied pilots found themselves in.
Give it a try.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Wizz on May 11, 2015, 12:45:26 PM
I don't think ENY in planes are really that out of wack. I think a P51D should be a 5 ENY plane. IMO almost everyone who flies it uses its one advantage to BnZ and run away from fights. The plane really is the most balanced fighter in the game. It can do everything almost above average, especially climb higher, further, and faster and than almost any other plane. It really is quite easy to be effective in it if you know the game and fly the plane properly.
I think perking Ord or perking the amount of bombers (with laser bullets) you can up with should be an option. Perks are just too easy to get and save in AH. I got 5000 perks ( what's the point) I could fly a 262 all month and prolly only lose 3-400 perks. There just isnt much use for them. So maybe making ord and an extra bomber perkable in order to make it more challenging instead of Wizz up ruining everyone's fun because he has nothing to worry about losing ( time/effort specificaly).
The eny in planes I think are fairly matched for the most part. If you played this game as long as I have and really understand (almost) every planes strength and weakness, you will understand why planes are gauged the way they are. Some are simply out matched in the MA. We are playing in an arena where you can up planes in 3 different time zones of the war, IRL you wouldn't have such an easy opportunity. That is why some older planes are 25 eny where as newer planes are 5 eny. They just completely out match older airplanes that shouldn't be fighting each other to begin with. But that is the challenge and point to gaining more perkies flying a more difficult (out of matched) plane in the Late war. Even a P51 v 109g14, the p51 almost is always able to run away from the fight. The p51 will give any 109K fight a challenge in 1v1 and if a P51 is on point, it should end up being a BnZ match by the p51. The p51 can out dive these planes and normally in most cases typically fly at a higher alt to begin with because of the 109s lack of diving ability. That is why their ENYs are so much higher compared to say a F4u1D just because it can dive quickly and turn well.
Demon hasnt changed his underwear for so long hes starting to smell like vinegar and ranch dressing....
:neener:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skull-1 on May 11, 2015, 01:15:30 PM
Now, I could argue ad naseum and cite air combat text books (chiefly the premise for how Robert Shaw devised the concept of ACM to begin with)
Shaw didn't devise the concept of ACM. That would be Boelcke. Are you sure you read all those books you claimed helped you become the ACM authority of renown in a previous sim lifetime or did you use them for a higher perch in your chair so you could see the monitor easier? :D
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: glzsqd on May 11, 2015, 05:52:07 PM
Now if you'll excuse me, I have some log exercises to complete.
(http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r561/folanjohnp1/pic-dump-368-16_zpsspiwy1q4.jpg) Impressive yield Skyyr. You should introduce this to the BUDS PT regime once they bring you back as a senior coordinator/instructor. :aok
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Dragon Tamer on May 11, 2015, 05:53:10 PM
(http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r561/folanjohnp1/pic-dump-368-16_zpsspiwy1q4.jpg) Impressive yield Skyyr. Should introduce this to the BUDS PT regime once they bring you back as a senior coordinator/instructor. :aok
How the hell do you keep managing to find these pictures? :headscratch:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 11, 2015, 05:53:28 PM
(http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r561/folanjohnp1/pic-dump-368-16_zpsspiwy1q4.jpg) Impressive yield Skyyr. You should introduce this to the BUDS PT regime once they bring you back as a senior coordinator/instructor. :aok
Holy cra ....
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 11, 2015, 05:55:06 PM
Thanks for impressing us with the casual mention of log exercises and rescue stuff.
P.S. Shaw didn't devise the concept of ACM. That would be Boelcke. Are you sure you read all those books you claimed helped you become the ACM authority of renown in a previous sim lifetime or did you use them for a higher perch in your chair so you could see the monitor easier? :D
Shaw was the first to analyze combat tactics and organize them into the logical field of study we know today as air combat maneuvering. Prior to that, rules were simply general guidelines based on experience, not logic or science. Nothing prior compares to Shaw's work.
Your statement is the equivalent of saying that because the Chinese invented the first gunpowder rockets, Goddard is not the true father of rocketry. Your post is disingenuous at best.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 11, 2015, 06:56:48 PM
Shaw was the first to analyze combat tactics and organize them into the logical field of study we know today as air combat maneuvering. Prior to that, rules were simply general guidelines based on experience, not logic or science. Nothing prior compares to Shaw's work.
Your statement is the equivalent of saying that because the Chinese invented the first gunpowder rockets, Goddard is not the true father of rocketry. Your post is disingenuous at best.
What makes this all the more humorous is that I truly believe you are are trying to be serious. Boelcke was the first pilot to analyze aerial warfare tactics (the ACM you throw around and compare to chess strategy stands for 'air combat maneuvering' - I know I've explained that to you at least twice). Did you think you found a claim by Shaw that he invented ACM? He's an expert in the field but even he doesn't claim that.
Seriously, I recognize your personality. It's not unusual on the internet. I don't claim to be an expert on ACM but I've obviously gleaned more knowledge about it in the 19 years I've been an online dogfighting game addict than you have in your 16 years of 'studying' it and even 'writing articles for another online dogfighting community.' I know you'll argue that you're never wrong to your dying breath. Mmmmmok. I'll let you. :D
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skyyr on May 11, 2015, 07:49:03 PM
What makes this all the more humorous is that I truly believe you are are trying to be serious. Boelcke was the first pilot to analyze aerial warfare tactics (the ACM you throw around and compare to chess strategy stands for 'air combat maneuvering' - I know I've explained that to you at least twice). Did you think you found a claim by Shaw that he invented ACM? He's an expert in the field but even he doesn't claim that. (And it's beginning to look like you can't claim even the former no matter how good you are at playing the game. But then, you claim that ACM is a gaming strategy.) :D
You could explain the above to me 100 times over, it still wouldn't change that your are incorrect, or that you repeatedly try to portray your opinion as fact.
Boelcke was the first pilot to analyze aerial warfare tactics
He was not the first to analyze tactics (as you falsely claim); he was the first to develop a list of fundamentals that others could utilize. Fighter pilots of WWI were taught rudimentary tactics in the classroom, and they were analyzed with limited data. Let me guess - you quoted Wikipedia as saying he was the "first"? Here's Wikipedia's citation link: http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/boelcke.htm (check it yourself), not even it claims he was the first (and he wasn't). He was simply the first to disseminate the information in a simple set of rules for others to use.
the ACM you throw around and compare to chess strategy
Not once have I compared any combat maneuver to a chess strategy, nor have I once brought up chess strategy. "Game theory" has absolutely nothing to do with any particular medium, and is instead based on logical risk taking and strategy dominance, an abstract concept.
Did you think you found a claim by Shaw that he invented ACM?
I never said Shaw "invented" ACM; what I said was he devised the concept of ACM. Now, in your defense, I left out the word "modern" - it should have read as "Shaw devised the concept of modern ACM." Shaw's research and clarification into the specifics of energy vs angles fights are what led directly to modern air combat maneuvering tactics. Combined with John Boyd's work on the E/M diagram, we know specifically how to fight enemy aircraft. There is a reason why Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering is still used as a primary resource in fighter pilot classrooms.
In just one paragraph, you've managed to make numerous false claims and fail to correctly quote what was said, all while continuing to inject fallacies and attacks. Then again, that's par for the course here.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Changeup on May 11, 2015, 07:58:30 PM
Oil Can Boyd had an awesome deuce.
EDIT: His strategy was to throw 15 ground balls per game because statistically, MLB GAMES are won 81% of the time by the team whose pitcher throws 14 ground balls or more PER GAME. This is an example of how one of many strategies can yield a desired result. His tactic to generate 15 ground balls was to unleash his deuce...or to drop a "hammer" on each hitter along with his unimpressive, diving circle CHANGEUP because downward moving pitches generated ground balls about 85% of the time.
His problem is that the opposing team knows that another strategy to win a baseball game is to put runners on base anyway you can, including WALKS. Oil Can Boyd didn't throw his deuces for strikes a lot so their tactic was to NOT swing at deuces.
And that is why we go ahead and play the game. To see whose strategy works, eh? Most of the time its completely dependent on who executes the tactical plan better.
You buttheads wont find those stats in Wikipedia. :neener:
I would venture to say ACM is a tactic when being thought about by Strategic planners for winning, occupying and denying opposition airspace. I would say ACM is a strategy by the pilot who, once engaged, has a new strategic objective. To stay alive.
See, its all about perspective. So you're both right. And you're both wrong.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 11, 2015, 08:31:38 PM
Shaw was the first to analyze combat tactics and organize them into the logical field of study we know today as air combat maneuvering. Prior to that, rules were simply general guidelines based on experience, not logic or science. Nothing prior compares to Shaw's work.
John Boyd was the first, not Shaw. Boyd revolutionized air-to-air fighting when he developed his Energy-Maneuverability theory and published his Aerial Attack Study.
You can find John Boyd's Aerial Attack Study and his other papers at this site (http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Boyd-Papers.html).
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skyyr on May 11, 2015, 08:35:34 PM
John Boyd was the first, not Shaw. Boyd revolutionized air-to-air fighting when he developed his Energy-Maneuverability theory and published his Aerial Attack Study.
You can find John Boyd's Aerial Attack Study and his other papers at this site (http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Boyd-Papers.html).
I actually mentioned that in my last post. Boyd did the work first, yes; however, Shaw simplified the tactics further, almost into conditionals (if, then, else), utilizing the E/M diagram, and divided them into energy tactics vs angles tactics. If my memory serves me correctly, Boyd did not make that distinction.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 11, 2015, 08:44:58 PM
Skyrr, I told you I'll let you argue about how you're never wrong til you croak.
Take it up with Shaw. Here's the preface of his book (you claim to have read):
I actually mentioned that in my last post. Boyd did the work first, yes; however, Shaw simplified the tactics further, almost into conditionals (if, then, else), utilizing the E/M diagram, and divided them into energy tactics vs angles tactics. If my memory serves me correctly, Boyd did not make that distinction.
Boyd did with the Aerial Attack Study.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: SPKmes on May 11, 2015, 08:49:26 PM
Holy cow !!! all this from watching grass grow..... boy my side of the fence is lacking some :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skyyr on May 11, 2015, 08:54:59 PM
How can one develop a fundamental list of tactics without analyzing?
Jesus skyyr.. I can't believe you're still arguing this.. You were wrong 6-8pages ago and still wrong.. Let it go man..
Oil Can Skyyr...can't stop throwing hammers and walking the lineup.
Edit: HiTechs strategy was to expose Skyyr for being a pompous stiffy. His tactic was to wait until Skyyr made himself look like a pompous stiffy and then make a post on the BBS pointing out HOW he he made himself look like a pompous stiffy.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: SunBat on May 11, 2015, 09:52:00 PM
I had corn in my poop today. :banana:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: SPKmes on May 11, 2015, 10:26:28 PM
I am really tempted to give bob a call to give him a huge laugh.
Who do you think took this picture of me flying a P51 in a formation loop?
Or who do you think bent my RV8 with an excursion threw the weeds?
Or who do you think taught me to fly formation?
And who taught me the basics of aerodynamics when I first started writing flight models?
Skyyr: You are many times one of the most obtuse persons I have ever met.
Here is the correct way of looking at things.
What strategy do you use in choosing your ACM tactics?
HiTech
BOOM!
I've been staring at my copy of Shaw, which sits on the shelf here next to my computer, and was really close to pointing out all Skyyr's misquotes and misinterpretations of the book in this thread and others, but this would have broken my rule of ignoring the troll.
Then HiTech handles it so perfectly. Fantastic!
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: glzsqd on May 11, 2015, 11:41:36 PM
You guys think Robert Shaw flies sims such as this?
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 11, 2015, 11:52:16 PM
Skyyr: You are many times one of the most obtuse persons I have ever met.
Guess you have never met Arlo. Or were you correctly implying he is THE MOST obtuse? In which case I agree.
I enjoy double standard tactics in action-----or perhaps it is strategy-----along with dog piling. :headscratch: And people wonder.......or perhaps don't.........why players leave. Erm. :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead
Awaiting my Rule #4 vacation or PoiNG with bells on. :noid. :bolt:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: SPKmes on May 12, 2015, 05:29:11 AM
I agree. Informational too. I thought Oil Can Boyd spent more time in Montreal with the Expos. Come to find out, he was with the Red Sox for like 9 years prior to that. How did I forget!?!?!?
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Arlo on May 12, 2015, 07:14:37 AM
Guess you have never met Arlo. Or were you correctly implying he is THE MOST obtuse? In which case I agree.
I enjoy double standard tactics in action-----or perhaps it is strategy-----along with dog piling. :headscratch: And people wonder.......or perhaps don't.........why players leave. Erm. :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead
Awaiting my Rule #4 vacation or PoiNG with bells on. :noid. :bolt:
Ah, I was feeling sorry for him, as well, but not so much that I felt the need to misdirect to defend him. :)
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Volron on May 12, 2015, 07:18:10 AM
Ah, I was feeling sorry for him, as well, but not so much that I felt the need to misdirect to defend him. :)
Shouldn't. He got himself into that spot. lol
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Changeup on May 12, 2015, 08:26:35 AM
Bold predictions are next:
1. Kruel will show up to bring us all back to earth by reminding us this is a game; 2. Skyyr will spend hours trying to find "Mouse" and prove he wasn't Shaw; 3. Skyyr will claim it wasn't Shaw because he couldn't find him and therefore has no proof; 4. Kruel will say Skyyrs deuce was much better than Oil Can Boyd's but he is only 1/2 the crackhead; 5. Skyyr will claim he was trolling us the whole time;
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: glzsqd on May 12, 2015, 08:33:28 AM
So Shaw never played Fighter Ace?
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Max on May 12, 2015, 10:14:44 AM
1. Kruel will show up to bring us all back to earth by reminding us this is a game; 2. Skyyr will spend hours trying to find "Mouse" and prove he wasn't Shaw; 3. Skyyr will claim it wasn't Shaw because he couldn't find him and therefore has no proof; 4. Kruel will say Skyyrs deuce was much better than Oil Can Boyd's but he is only 1/2 the crackhead; 5. Skyyr will claim he was trolling us the whole time;
FILM AT 11!!
p.s Shaw WAS Mouse. At least he was at the 2-3 Cons he attended :devil
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Stang on May 12, 2015, 10:49:52 AM
1. Kruel will show up to bring us all back to earth by reminding us this is a game; 2. Skyyr will spend hours trying to find "Mouse" and prove he wasn't Shaw; 3. Skyyr will claim it wasn't Shaw because he couldn't find him and therefore has no proof; 4. Kruel will say Skyyrs deuce was much better than Oil Can Boyd's but he is only 1/2 the crackhead; 5. Skyyr will claim he was trolling us the whole time;
I agreed with your previous post, it's a matter of perspective. But who cares guys this is only a game! Rofl
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Changeup on May 12, 2015, 11:00:40 AM
I am really tempted to give bob a call to give him a huge laugh.
I have a feeling he has a bit more class than to laugh.
I would enjoy seeing his thoughts in here though. I have a feeling he will be far less snarky and a lot more informative than the picture-loving "in" crowd around these here parts. :cool:
Quote
Who do you think took this picture of me flying a P51 in a formation loop?
Here's to hoping his "shooting" is better than his "shooting" if you know what I mean. :) (He missed.)
Quote
Or who do you think bent my RV8 with an excursion threw the weeds?
Or through.
Quote
Here is the correct way of looking at things.
What strategy do you use in choosing your ACM tactics?
HiTech
Are you trying to kill or just divert?
Are you playing for time (as in to waste the enemy's) or some other objective?
Is your strategy to run the guy out of fuel or kill him fast?
That's how I would answer. Something like that.
(Strategy, while generally understood as the big picture, is also defined as a method. ACM would fall into this category based on that definition.)
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skull-1 on May 12, 2015, 11:13:27 AM
BTW, how good was Shaw when he played? Must have been interesting to run into that guy in the arena.
This would be me if I survived the merge: :joystick: :bhead :furious
I "flew" with Shaw and against him a few times in AW. As I remember, he was very good but not one of the "gods". I don't think he played often enough to get good at the game parts of the game. (And I don't think he liked to "die" -- even virtually -- but that's only a guess.) But, it sure was a kick to fly with the Guy Who Wrote the Book. Also met him at an AW convention -- real nice guy.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Changeup on May 12, 2015, 12:01:49 PM
I "flew" with Shaw and against him a few times in AW. As I remember, he was very good but not one of the "gods". I don't think he played often enough to get good at the game parts of the game. (And I don't think he liked to "die" -- even virtually -- but that's only a guess.) But, it sure was a kick to fly with the Guy Who Wrote the Book. Also met him at an AW convention -- real nice guy.
Neat-o. :aok
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skull-1 on May 12, 2015, 01:56:36 PM
Take it easy man, I don't want you to break your F5 button ;)
I understand your have alot of emotion invested in this discussion.
Edit: watch, he's going to re-frame from posting for 10-20 minutes and pretend like he hasn't been starring at this thread all day.
If you say so. Btw the words you seek: refrain and staring. :aok
I always check for follow ups to my posts. As apparently you do. Go figure. ;)
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: glzsqd on May 12, 2015, 02:48:15 PM
Ladies and Gentleman I give you SKULL-1!!!!
CHAMPION POSTER!
Here's a few words from the man of the hour himself!
Truly inspiring :salute
He's mad because I talked about his E-Boyfriends ;) Sorry man I'll let you get back to your thread Spam :police:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Coalcat1 on May 12, 2015, 02:51:54 PM
This tread wins, even HT trolled it a bit!
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 12, 2015, 03:13:42 PM
If you guys could troll the seas as well as you troll the BBs you'd never have to worry about eating again. Hell you could even make a profit from all the trolling. :bolt:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 12, 2015, 03:18:23 PM
If you guys could troll the seas as well as you troll the BBs you'd never have to worry about eating again. Hell you could even make a profit from all the trolling. :bolt:
Give a man a troll... Icky.
But teach a man HOW to troll... :D
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Skull-1 on May 12, 2015, 03:43:32 PM
ACM fully meets the definition of an independent strategy.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have some log exercises to complete and then a hostage rescue at 4:30.
You're talking "personal" strategy... which really doesn't work. That said, you missed a key piece in your link-- "The strategy concept is sometimes (wrongly) confused with that of a move." Now why isn't the word "Tactics" anywhere in that wiki on game theory?
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Dragon Tamer on May 13, 2015, 09:04:52 AM
Wow that is the craziest guy I've ever seen. I thought for sure he would be dead in flames. Wow, unreal he didn't stall out into the ground. That is just insane.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: Randy1 on May 13, 2015, 02:33:06 PM
I remember the guy doing that in a yellow J3 many moons ago.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on May 13, 2015, 03:02:04 PM
HiTech ... one simply cannot use a word like 'Obtuse' and misspell 'through' in the same post. :lol
Apparently one can (but it may be complicated, so you may be right).
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: bustr on May 13, 2015, 04:17:53 PM
Don't jinx things now. You make Hitech spell properly and he will introduced bugs into his coad.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on May 13, 2015, 04:39:30 PM
:P
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: bustr on May 13, 2015, 06:45:34 PM
Whooohw now nelly. Common Frenchy, don't you want your cockpit to look like it's a P47 instead of something Darth Vader might get teary eye'd over? That kind of buggyness seems to always forget to give you the Darth Vader ride's weapons.... :O
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: DREDIOCK on May 13, 2015, 07:54:47 PM
Wow that is the craziest guy I've ever seen. I thought for sure he would be dead in flames. Wow, unreal he didn't stall out into the ground. That is just insane.
We used to have an airshow in Sussex county till the previous owner of the airfield got caught up in an embezzlement scheme.
Anyway. First time I went was in 1986. It wasnt for 16 years that I made it back. Both times they had the same routine you just looked at in that vid.
Funny thing was. Not only the same routine. But the announcer used the same exact script
Still cool to watch
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: JOACH1M on May 13, 2015, 08:38:16 PM
let me take a guess Joachim is the white girl in the back?
semp
Me with my participation trophy. :banana:
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: bustr on May 13, 2015, 09:22:40 PM
Well then Joachim, if you is "that white girl", buy everyone playing this game a new PC with all the bells and whistles. And then pay for Hitech to hire a coading crew to get AH3 out the door in 2 weeks.
If you is that girl.
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: JOACH1M on May 13, 2015, 09:26:16 PM
Well then Joachim, if you is "that white girl", buy everyone playing this game a new PC with all the bells and whistles. And then pay for Hitech to hire a coading crew to get AH3 out the door in 2 weeks.
If you is that girl.
only if you break my heart and I can write a song and make a few million off it first! :cry
Title: Re: Fun as watching grass grow
Post by: guncrasher on May 13, 2015, 09:39:28 PM