190A-5 help needed

[caldera]

Can't seem to figure out how to fly this thing.  And I mean actually fight in it, not just cherry pick. 

Any thoughts?  This plane is giving me fits. 



Attached is a pretty good fight (the real action starts around the 4:00 mark) in which I get completely dominated by a P-39D.   


* Skuzzy, I would post this in Help and Training but you can't upload films there.

[Latrobe]

The 190A5 is a surprisingly nimble plane, very much different from the bricks known as the 190A8 or D9. It turns very well at high speeds and even decently at low speeds with flaps out, but there's a crippling spot in it's speed that is just fast enough that you can't drop flaps, but also not fast enough to exploit it's good high speed handling. If I remember correctly the 190A5 can start deploying flaps at 190mph? in between 200 and around 250mph is where you're turning ability will start to feel like the other 190's, that being like a brick. The trick is to either always be fast, or stay nose up to keep flaps out. The 190's do not like flat turning though you can use it's exceptional roll rate in a scissors fight. Avoid fighting "flat" if at all possible, but if you're forced into a flat fight then use the amazing roll rate to change directions very quickly and maybe use throttle work to force an overshoot.

If you can get just a little bit above your opponent then going nose up and deploying flaps works great in the A5. The flaps and pulling back on the stick to climb will keep you nose up, and the excellent roll rate will keep you from wing stalling. You can then hold the A5 nose up like this for a surprisingly long time. Then all you have to do is wait for your opponent to stall or give you the opportunity to drop on them for a shot. This doesn't work all the time in all situations but it works maybe 9 out or 10 times

The start of the fight you flew very well! Perfectly executed defensive turn to deny the shot and then reversal into him for a shot opportunity. The mistake you made was around the 4:50 mark right after your second shot. The P-39 is coming down and you're going up. You slow down enough to get flaps out and this is a golden opportunity to take the fight vertical. The P-39 will be below you and trying to climb to you. Drop all your flaps and roll left back into him slightly while climbing. As he crossed from your left to right behind and below you then you reverse your turn yet again to the right and back into him while still staying nose up. Staying nose up keeps you slow enough to keep flaps out and stay above the P-39. Constantly reversing your turn back into the P-39 will keep him behind and below you and deny him any easy shots if any at all. All you have to do is keep nose up and reversing back into him until the P-39 stalls or you see a shot opportunity, then you just roll over and dive on him for your shot. Something to note about this particular fight though is the P-39D does not have WEP while you do, so Weping up in your climb will significantly help in keeping you above him, and the P-39 has nasty engine torque. Once slow a P-39 will just refuse to roll right, so try to exploit that whenever you can.

This is just what I would have done in the fight though. There are probably a dozen other possible ways to have fought this fight.

[Someguy63]

Snuggie is your stall limiter still on?

I noticed during the 5:00 mark when you had the P39 coming in on your six you try to initiate a rolling scissors by dodging his shots left, then right, and so on. Your throttle should have been cut in order to force an overshoot as you noticed, with your throttle at full and the P39 maintaining a constant distance you could've easily got him to overshoot.

I also may suggest using the 190's far superior roll rate in order to initiate an upward pirouette in order to get the P39 to overshoot in this vertical reversal. By then, if neither of you end up stalling out you could gain the advantage. Something similar to this happened around the 7:30 mark but you miss the opportunity.

You did good but you have room for improvement, you can be pretty good in that thing. But seriously as I had mentioned, if you have your stall limiter on, I strongly suggest turning it off; especially if you want to get better in this bird.

That "oop" at the end made me laugh too.

[JOACH1M]

Posting in here right now so I can upload some films. I have the most success with the a5 in multi-con situation.

This is a d9, but the same idea of flying is used for the a5.

 You really have to use that roll rate to change direction. Like anarchy said, you have to use throttle cutting to force an overshoot.

[DmonSlyr]

Posting in here right now so I can upload some films. I have the most success with the a5 in multi-con situation.

This is a d9, but the same idea of flying is used for the a5.

 You really have to use that roll rate to change direction. Like anarchy said, you have to use throttle cutting to force an overshoot.

Yeah the roll rate to change direction to  the upward or downward movement is very important. Use the ailerons to set the angle, then use lift to make use of the angle. Make sure you set your angle wih the ailerons first then use elevator in that order. It will help with ropes and E management. The roll rate while performing a verticle  overshoot in a 190a5 is one of its favorite maneuvers. 

[caldera]

Some very good info, thanks fellas. 
Hopefully, some of it will sink in.   

[caldera]

Managed to employ some of the good advice in this instance:



Put it in a steep climb, while weaving side to side and finally dropping flaps to hang at the top. 



Tried a few sorties today with the stall limiter off and that's just not gonna happen.  I spent the whole time stalling and over-correcting to counter it.  The plane would keep changing directions and could barely stay airborne.  It was just a miserable experience. 

Years ago, I spent a few months in the DA with the P-40E, learning to adapt to flying without the limiter and it honestly took that long to be comfortable with it.  Took a break from the game and a few weeks after returning, still could not control the plane and gave up.  Probably 6 different times now, I have tried flying without it and the sole success was hard-earned.  Experimented with scaling and that didn't help, except for making the plane mushy.  I'm fine with the disadvantage of the limiter, because it's more fun fighting red guys, than fighting a stall.  Look up ham-handed in the dictionary - that sums up my "skills".

[Someguy63]

Managed to employ some of the good advice in this instance:



Put it in a steep climb, while weaving side to side and finally dropping flaps to hang at the top. 



Tried a few sorties today with the stall limiter off and that's just not gonna happen.  I spent the whole time stalling and over-correcting to counter it.  The plane would keep changing directions and could barely stay airborne.  It was just a miserable experience. 

Years ago, I spent a few months in the DA with the P-40E, learning to adapt to flying without the limiter and it honestly took that long to be comfortable with it.  Took a break from the game and a few weeks after returning, still could not control the plane and gave up.  Probably 6 different times now, I have tried flying without it and the sole success was hard-earned.  Experimented with scaling and that didn't help, except for making the plane mushy.  I'm fine with the disadvantage of the limiter, because it's more fun fighting red guys, than fighting a stall.  Look up ham-handed in the dictionary - that sums up my "skills".

Yeah I knew that would happen when you fly the A5 with the SL off, but trust me you just need a lot of practice to get used to it. What I did when I first got rid of the stall limiter was just up from a base in 75% or 100% fuel and just practice turning right at the aircraft's limit for a few minutes. Practice doing maneuvers and such to get you situated with it. Doing this will get you used to flying with it on and learning its limits.

I had the same problem with that 190 but no more. However, the occasional wing stall or whatever does happen but as I said you just need to grow used to it with some simple practice.

[ink]

....
Years ago, I spent a few months in the DA with the P-40E, learning to adapt to flying without the limiter and it honestly took that long to be comfortable with it.  Took a break from the game and a few weeks after returning, still could not control the plane and gave up.  Probably 6 different times now, I have tried flying without it and the sole success was hard-earned.  Experimented with scaling and that didn't help, except for making the plane mushy.  I'm fine with the disadvantage of the limiter, because it's more fun fighting red guys, than fighting a stall.  Look up ham-handed in the dictionary - that sums up my "skills".

you will always be at the disadvantage from those who fly with it off....most do but true fighters will have the most benefit from it, they will really work the plane at its edge and be able to go over and still control the plane...


if you want to be the best YOU can be..turn it off and deal with it...

seriously I will gladly go to the TA and work a couple hrs getting you used to it....

we can get a lot of practice in short order in TA...not worrying about getting killed and having to reroll....

I know you enjoy the fight...turn that crap off.

[caldera]

Yeah I knew that would happen when you fly the A5 with the SL off, but trust me you just need a lot of practice to get used to it. What I did when I first got rid of the stall limiter was just up from a base in 75% or 100% fuel and just practice turning right at the aircraft's limit for a few minutes. Practice doing maneuvers and such to get you situated with it. Doing this will get you used to flying with it on and learning its limits.

I had the same problem with that 190 but no more. However, the occasional wing stall or whatever does happen but as I said you just need to grow used to it with some simple practice.

A few minutes for you perhaps, but as previously mentioned, a long and tiresome grind for me.

you will always be at the disadvantage from those who fly with it off....most do but true fighters will have the most benefit from it, they will really work the plane at its edge and be able to go over and still control the plane...


if you want to be the best YOU can be..turn it off and deal with it...

seriously I will gladly go to the TA and work a couple hrs getting you used to it....

we can get a lot of practice in short order in TA...not worrying about getting killed and having to reroll....

I know you enjoy the fight...turn that crap off.

Thank you for your offer but I have neither the inclination, nor the patience to go through with all that again.   

I'm just here to fight in the best way I can but don't need to be the best I can, if you can get that.  With as much time as I spend on the game, it's still just for fun and working at being the best is more work than fun.  Picking up a few pointers along the way is fine with me.

"A man's got to know his limitations"  -  Harry Callahan

[TonyJoey]

It is well worth the effort to turn stall limiter off.

[ink]

A few minutes for you perhaps, but as previously mentioned, a long and tiresome grind for me.

Thank you for your offer but I have neither the inclination, nor the patience to go through with all that again.   

I'm just here to fight in the best way I can but don't need to be the best I can, if you can get that.  With as much time as I spend on the game, it's still just for fun and working at being the best is more work than fun.  Picking up a few pointers along the way is fine with me.

"A man's got to know his limitations"  -  Harry Callahan

cc that the offer is there

[mthrockmor]

As a bit of an A5 officianado...the Butcher Bird was designed for high speed passes. Hit hard, zoom past and gain altitude. Sadly, when you fly the 190 as designed you are called names, some version of a 'picker' is the standard. Getting into a flat turn contest with a Spit or Zero is not honorable, it is stupid.

When you do get into the soup, on the deck a couple basics. First, the engine on the A5 is great with lots of WEP, use it. Learn how to fight in the vertical, which the A5 is plenty good at. When going into the vertical realize that you rarely go 90 degrees, straight up into the air. Instead, you'll pull up though start to turn your nose at 70 degrees. When any bird stalls out you lose a ton of time and alt to correct.

When stall fighting, get used to rolling your nose over before buffing indicates stall. Make sure to use your rudder to get your nose over quicker. Rudder and roll shocks many sticks who think the 190 is a poor stall fighter. When you get the hang of that you are ready for graduate level stall fighting, which includes using throttle and torque.

Just a few basics. Every bit as big as these few basics, gunnery. In a stall fight you can't afford to miss too many shots. I don't know how many times I've been in a stall fight, miss good shot after good shot then lose. Had I hit the target it would have been different.

Summary:
1. Don't be shamed into avoiding the style of fight the Butcher Bird was designed for. It is a BnZ plane, intentionally.
2. Stall fighting includes getting your nose over at about 70 degrees in the vertical
3. Use roll rate to get your nose on target for snapshots
4. Don't miss your shots
5. Turn off stall limiter
6. A5 is great at dropping all flaps to help the other guy stall out/rope a dope

Bonus: Greebo taught me the ultimate lesson in dog fighting: Your job is to get the other guy to overshoot. You'll notice Joachim using vertical and roll rate to get both birds to overshoot, then roll in for a snapshot. Good as gold, and great fun.

...my two cents

boo