Author Topic: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter  (Read 2984 times)

Offline Zimme83

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3077
Re: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2015, 08:40:23 AM »
Haha. Forgot. Not mention any non-us plane in any way that can be concidered positive.  :rofl

''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline Zimme83

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3077
Re: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2015, 08:44:39 AM »
Every time i mention Gripen u guys goes bananas.  :aok
FYI Swedens main reason do develop Gripen was to not be dependant on a foregin aircraft system. Thats why we did not waited another 30 years before replacing the J-35 and JA-37:s....
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2015, 09:09:59 AM »
Haha. Forgot. Not mention any non-us plane in any way that can be concidered positive.  :rofl

Hey! You're talking to the anointed paladin of Airbus here!  :old:
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline FBKampfer

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 642
Re: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2015, 11:20:28 AM »
Is there anything else to call it but "bad"? Its failed to even come near any of its performance parameters ; Its one customer/partner has publicly called it a POS, and now the Russians themselves are only building enough to demonstrate at air shows. I think that qualifies it as "bad", the fact that it wont be built to even have a remote chance at operational involvement. Five have already been built, one lost in a fire, and the Indians wont even pick up the phone to answer. Sheesh! Thats not "good"

The F-35 wasn't anywhere close to parameters, already grossly over budget, behind schedule, dropping potential buyers like flys, and would have been scrapped if we hadn't sunk so much money down that rat hole before it was up for review. By those standards, the F35 was an abject failure that we've managed to turn into an underwhelming performer, but acceptable half success for the project, through sheer weight of the dollar bills we've thrown at it.

And this is our 4th stealth plane, and it's not much better than Russia's first! We love to make little of our opponent's successes, but as a first attempt, it's pretty damn good, actually.

I would have thought you would be somewhat immune to the whole "murica" goggles thing,  actually. Just don't fall into the American habit of underestimating our enemies.
AvA Development Group
Freebird SAC member

Great men are forged in fire; it is the privilege of lesser men to light the flames.

Offline Rich46yo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
Re: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2015, 01:50:42 PM »
The F35 is, I believe, operational. Very few, if any, are questioning its low/attack capabilities. In that role it will probably shine. As an all aspect fighter it will probably fall short. Its still to early to tell. In my opinion the 35B version really hurt the program as we just tried to do to many things with the air frame.

My "'murica thing" is based on History, 4 years myself in USAF, and a clear picture of the present and near future. No other nation can survive against American air power. Its that simple. The F35 has had a troubled start but I think its going to end up being a very good component in a war winning system.

You cant seem to understand that future air war's will more resemble "Enders Game" then they will WW2 or even Vietnam. Im talking fuzed networks of air land sea assets giving commanders an unprecedented picture of the battlefield, most of all in the air. Where combat planes will operate together, linked together, sharing target data and data of all kinds at a speed unheard of before. This was the war the F35 was designed for. Not a P51 vs 190 combat, or MIG alley, but a networked, information intensive, precision strike, BVR environment.

We could have made it faster. We could have made it a lot of things more. We could have made it an F22 with bombs. But we never meant to fight fair with it and I'm not giving up on the airplane or the theory behind it. I honestly think this "hate the F35" thing has gone past logic and taken on a life of its own. Now some are saying the stealth coating wont stay on. The damn thing was tested in some of the harshest salt water environments known and its done fine.

Theres going to be a Dozen, or maybe more, nations eventually flying 2,500 to 3,000 airframes. Kinda sounds like a more successful program then Putin's wonderjet.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline wpeters

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1647
Re: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2015, 03:37:21 PM »
The F35 is, I believe, operational. Very few, if any, are questioning its low/attack capabilities. In that role it will probably shine. As an all aspect fighter it will probably fall short. Its still to early to tell. In my opinion the 35B version really hurt the program as we just tried to do to many things with the air frame.

My "'murica thing" is based on History, 4 years myself in USAF, and a clear picture of the present and near future. No other nation can survive against American air power. Its that simple. The F35 has had a troubled start but I think its going to end up being a very good component in a war winning system.

You cant seem to understand that future air war's will more resemble "Enders Game" then they will WW2 or even Vietnam. Im talking fuzed networks of air land sea assets giving commanders an unprecedented picture of the battlefield, most of all in the air. Where combat planes will operate together, linked together, sharing target data and data of all kinds at a speed unheard of before. This was the war the F35 was designed for. Not a P51 vs 190 combat, or MIG alley, but a networked, information intensive, precision strike, BVR environment.

We could have made it faster. We could have made it a lot of things more. We could have made it an F22 with bombs. But we never meant to fight fair with it and I'm not giving up on the airplane or the theory behind it. I honestly think this "hate the F35" thing has gone past logic and taken on a life of its own. Now some are saying the stealth coating wont stay on. The damn thing was tested in some of the harshest salt water environments known and its done fine.

Theres going to be a Dozen, or maybe more, nations eventually flying 2,500 to 3,000 airframes. Kinda sounds like a more successful program then Putin's wonderjet.

Agreed
LtCondor
          The Damned
Fighter pilots are either high, or in the process of getting high.🙊
The difference between Dweebs and non dweebs... Dweebs have kills

Offline Gman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3748
Re: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2015, 11:31:00 PM »
Agreed as well.

I'm waiting for the day when info gets out on how an F35A does vs an F16 is dissimilar A2A training.  Some info out there says that in a combat config (not air show clean), the F35 matches or even beats the F16 in terms of accel, climb rate, instantaneous turn rate, as well as sustained rate/radius. Some info says it doesn't.  This forum if you search it will yield many links for/against this.  I will say that even if it comes close to the F16 in terms of BFM/ACM capability, then there really shouldn't be a whole lot of complaints IMO.  108 mil isn't all that much more than the Typhoon, Gripen, Rafale, SuperHornet, and so on.  Especially when you consider the sensor fusion (the most important issue in terms of combat capability from what many pilots have said), and oh ya, that whole low observable thing.

It'll take time to tell.  From watching the F35B high tempo ops testing going on right now, the F35B seems to be working in terms  of at least being able to generate sorties at the rate it is supposed to, at least so far as what "they" are telling the public.

A friend of mine who has flown a ton of modern fighters flew the Gripen at the Empire test pilot school in the UK, and has many good things to say about it.  A great jack of all trades, plus it's very, very small and hard to see in close in fights.  Good radar(AESA optional now), decent payload/range, price, but most importantly, sortie generation capability.  Due to the simplicity/maintenance of the Gripen, it can really crank out the sorties, easily doubling the CF18 Hornet my friend has 2500hrs in he says.  That means 50 fighters in broad strokes = 100 in time of war when high sortie rates are needed, at 50% the cost of the next closest gen 4.5 fighter.


Anyhow, as much as the F35B is slagged - compromised the capabilities of the A/C model, USMC doesn't need a Stealth fighter, too hard on the decks of various Assault ships it's supposed to use, etc etc - the potential is there if the USA makes wise decisions in the future that the sea control/power of the USA will increase measurably by having the ability to pop 20+ advanced Stealth Fighters in the F35B on another 10+ Assault class ship types.  IMO this could really add a lot of capability to the future striking power of the USN.  Possibly.  Again, it'll be interesting to see how it all works out.  I think anyone who compares the F35B with the Harrier though will say it's a huge leap forward for the USMC, but at a very high price.

The UK is another issue as well, what with the 2 big bird farms they are building.  Recently Russia has been playing footsies with Argentina, offering them Su24s at a ridiculously low lease rate, and other fighters as well.  All there is down there to counter this is 4 Typhoons stationed there permanently, of which 1 or 2 = in maintenance cycle often, which means there is a 2-ship in the Falklands at best..at that's it.  Not saying there is going to be another fight over the Falklands, but having 2 CVs with F35Bs or Cs would be a very smart deterrent at least.

Offline FBKampfer

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 642
Re: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2015, 02:15:13 AM »
Sorry about the late reply, work has been hell.

Anyway, the F-35 will undoubtedly shine as a bomb truck. It's not an exceedingly demanding role, and stealth just makes it harder to get rid of.

However, my point is that we tried to build it to do all these things, and really the one it's going to be good at is the only one we should have designed it to do from the get go. We pissed away all that money for what is a glorified replacement for the harrier.

The PAK-FA seems to rather have been misdesigned  (by US standards and methods of thinking at any rate) than poorly designed. Given that the Russian military isn't nearly as networked and integrated as our own is, it's no surprise that they didn't design their new fighter to our standards in that area. As I said before, they don't seem to have ever intended to build an F22 clone. Instead they built a fighter to fight a different type of conflict.

Now whether that mentality is wise or prudent is another matter entirely. But it doesn't affect the quality of the fighter, which should be assessed from the standpoint of its intended use. Personally, I'm of the opinion they've built a decent stealth fighter to fight a war out of the 1980's, but have badly misjudged the requirements for their next Gen fighter.


And I hold a similar view of the F35. Only we built it for a current war, and misjudged the requirements.


As for your Murica business, it's fine to be proud of what we've accomplished  (technologically), and take objective pride in an airframe. But where it becomes a problem is when it turns into bias. You've shown you're biased right from the title. You start out unobjectively bashing the PAK-FA, with descriptions that simply don't fit, but are instead typical diminutive and belittling terms in US English. The PAK-FA is not small, and I'm sure they're built with a sufficient level of quality control. But then a purely objective assessment of the aircraft was never what you wanted to post.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 02:20:11 AM by FBKampfer »
AvA Development Group
Freebird SAC member

Great men are forged in fire; it is the privilege of lesser men to light the flames.

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2015, 02:29:19 AM »
Then in your opinion what should "the requirements for their next Gen fighter" have been, and how does the F-35 not meet those requirements?
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline Rich46yo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
Re: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2015, 09:21:12 AM »

Lol, these werent my words. Maybe you should go back and read the posts. Apparently my calling a POS built by Russia a "POS" caused some poster to refer to my so called "'murica thing". Idiotic! If it wasnt a POS they would actually be building and selling the thing. If it wasnt junk their main, and only partner, would be picking the phone up. The Russians promised a 5th gen all aspect stealth fight equal or superior to the F22 and they delivered what is barely a technology demonstrator, and a bad one at that. What else should one call it?

What are its problems? Well the Indian AF say's its engines are crap, its underpowered,  the air frame cracks all the time, its stealth features are inadequate, its weapons carriage is inadequate, the capability of its AESA radar is poor, its maintainability and safety features are poor. And even worse the Russians wont even share information with them, for instance the reason one of them burned up awhile ago. Now considering the Indians are paying 1/2 the development price for this fighter I'd say the program was severely mishandled, aka "crummy".



Quote
As for your Murica business, it's fine to be proud of what we've accomplished  (technologically), and take objective pride in an airframe. But where it becomes a problem is when it turns into bias. You've shown you're biased right from the title. You start out unobjectively bashing the PAK-FA, with descriptions that simply don't fit, but are instead typical diminutive and belittling terms in US English. The PAK-FA is not small, and I'm sure they're built with a sufficient level of quality control. But then a purely objective assessment of the aircraft was never what you wanted to post.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline zack1234

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13217
Re: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2015, 12:03:48 PM »
You should buy the UK stealth bomber :old:
There are no pies stored in this plane overnight

                          
The GFC
Pipz lived in the Wilderness near Ontario

Offline FBKampfer

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 642
Re: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2015, 03:31:37 PM »
Lol, these werent my words. Maybe you should go back and read the posts. Apparently my calling a POS built by Russia a "POS" caused some poster to refer to my so called "'murica thing". Idiotic! If it wasnt a POS they would actually be building and selling the thing. If it wasnt junk their main, and only partner, would be picking the phone up. The Russians promised a 5th gen all aspect stealth fight equal or superior to the F22 and they delivered what is barely a technology demonstrator, and a bad one at that. What else should one call it?

What are its problems? Well the Indian AF say's its engines are crap, its underpowered,  the air frame cracks all the time, its stealth features are inadequate, its weapons carriage is inadequate, the capability of its AESA radar is poor, its maintainability and safety features are poor. And even worse the Russians wont even share information with them, for instance the reason one of them burned up awhile ago. Now considering the Indians are paying 1/2 the development price for this fighter I'd say the program was severely mishandled, aka "crummy".

Those are your exact words. Read your title "Russia's crummy little stealth fighter". Right there your sole intent is to belittle the fighter from the get go, no matter if your insults and criticisms are accurate or not.

They may have some truth to them. I hadn't heard about the airframe issues, and intend to dig into that.

As for the sales, we're having trouble selling any large quantities of the F35, and that's to people we designed it for. Lack of sales isn't necessarily linked to an items quality.
AvA Development Group
Freebird SAC member

Great men are forged in fire; it is the privilege of lesser men to light the flames.

Offline Vulcan

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9911
Re: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2015, 04:14:54 PM »
LOL is the F-35's gun even working yet?

Offline FBKampfer

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 642
Re: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2015, 06:32:33 PM »
LOL is the F-35's gun even working yet?

50% of the time, it works every time.
AvA Development Group
Freebird SAC member

Great men are forged in fire; it is the privilege of lesser men to light the flames.

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Russia's crummy little stealth fighter
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2015, 07:04:58 PM »
FBKampfer, I'll ask again: In your opinion what should "the requirements for their next Gen fighter" have been, and how does the F-35 not meet those requirements?
No gods or kings. Only Predator.