Slow turning in a low P38

[bbosen]

I have been unable to get my P38L  to turn slowly at the low speeds I would like to achieve. I've read some reports by actual P38 pilots that claimed that the P38 would circle safely at about 70 MPH down low. I think they were using full flaps. I've tried to do that, but as soon as my airspeed drops below about 105 MPH it goes into deep buffet, and the turn rate decreases. It feels like I'm about to lose it before I back off and pick up some speed. I've tried this with various degrees of throttle (from idle through WEP) with various descent angles (from level to about 15 degree dive) and the result is always the same: as soon as my airspeed drops below about 105, I get deep buffet, violent shudder, dropping turn rate, and high risk of spinning in. Has anybody got any tricks that might help me?
 

[Drano]

Oh it'll turn slower but don't be thinking you're gonna out turn a zero or anything. The G will bend it better than the J or L as the G is a bit lighter. I fly the L all the time as a fighter but I'm a nutjob. I just like the slightly improved roll rate over the J. Before you start thinking about THAT kind of turning, like any other plane, you'd best be lighter on fuel. Closer to 25% or under would be advisable otherwise "normal" turning is better. It's a heavy enough bird to begin with. Tack on a fair load of fuel and turning isn't your game.

While the 38 WILL turn on full flaps it's best between 2 and 3. More than that is more of an emergency measure to stay airborne but success would depend on your opponent's plane, e state and piloting skill. As with any other plane when that slow you really have to watch your pull as it's really easy to pull yourself into a stall--as you've found out. When you're putting out 4 or 5 notches on the 38, while you may get a smaller turning circle, you'll end up with a slower turn rate. A lot of planes may be able to gain on you around the circle after a few revs. Good thing to try and remember is the 38 will turn equally well in both directions. Vs most planes try to keep the fight going right if you can. This forces your opponent to fight torque which isn't a problem for the 38.

[The Fugitive]

turn off combat trim. Trim level at 140 or so before you get the buffet, then flip it off and you should be able to get slower. Twinboom use to make me fly between trees to get use to flying low and slow in the 38s

[Drano]

turn off combat trim.

Oh cripes yeah! Definitely! I hardly ever have it on other than a quick toggle to get centered going from here to there.

[Ack-Ack]

I have been unable to get my P38L  to turn slowly at the low speeds I would like to achieve. I've read some reports by actual P38 pilots that claimed that the P38 would circle safely at about 70 MPH down low. I think they were using full flaps. I've tried to do that, but as soon as my airspeed drops below about 105 MPH it goes into deep buffet, and the turn rate decreases. It feels like I'm about to lose it before I back off and pick up some speed. I've tried this with various degrees of throttle (from idle through WEP) with various descent angles (from level to about 15 degree dive) and the result is always the same: as soon as my airspeed drops below about 105, I get deep buffet, violent shudder, dropping turn rate, and high risk of spinning in. Has anybody got any tricks that might help me?
 

Do you have the stall limiter enabled?

[morfiend]

Bbosen,

   I saw the video where the pilot said he could turn the 38 all the way down to 70 mph,but remember that may have been IAS and at alt the true speed would be somewhat higher.

   Also remember pilots are kind of like fishermen,they dont exactly lie they just tend to remember things better than they really were...... Yup I fish!



     

[PR3D4TOR]

Typical WWII air speed indicators are also inaccurate at high angles of attack because of the angle of the pitot tube and airflow.

[FLOOB]

I have been unable to get my P38L  to turn slowly at the low speeds I would like to achieve. I've read some reports by actual P38 pilots that claimed that the P38 would circle safely at about 70 MPH down low. I think they were using full flaps. I've tried to do that, but as soon as my airspeed drops below about 105 MPH it goes into deep buffet, and the turn rate decreases. It feels like I'm about to lose it before I back off and pick up some speed. I've tried this with various degrees of throttle (from idle through WEP) with various descent angles (from level to about 15 degree dive) and the result is always the same: as soon as my airspeed drops below about 105, I get deep buffet, violent shudder, dropping turn rate, and high risk of spinning in. Has anybody got any tricks that might help me?
 

Sources I've found online state the p38L stall speed is 170kmh, which is about 105mph. However the test in this link states the p38j stall speed is 53mph with flaps and gear down. But that's level flight. If it's the video I'm thinking of, the pilot also indicated he was turning at about a 90 degree bank. I don't have much experience in the p38 in aces high, but any fighter being able to maintain altitude banked 90 degrees going 70 some mph to me seems hard to believe.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38.html

[Randy1]

I am not sure the 72 MPH turn speed shows up from any other source than Jim Byers.  One of the interviews on youtube has someone saying when "When we got approval to turn at 72mph . . ."  Maybe Jim Byers said that too.

AkAk will know.

[FLS]

I have been unable to get my P38L  to turn slowly at the low speeds I would like to achieve. I've read some reports by actual P38 pilots that claimed that the P38 would circle safely at about 70 MPH down low. I think they were using full flaps. I've tried to do that, but as soon as my airspeed drops below about 105 MPH it goes into deep buffet, and the turn rate decreases. It feels like I'm about to lose it before I back off and pick up some speed. I've tried this with various degrees of throttle (from idle through WEP) with various descent angles (from level to about 15 degree dive) and the result is always the same: as soon as my airspeed drops below about 105, I get deep buffet, violent shudder, dropping turn rate, and high risk of spinning in. Has anybody got any tricks that might help me?
 

You are trying to turn at a speed that's below your 1g stall speed. You need more than 1g to turn.  Do you understand why that won't work?

[bozon]

You are trying to turn at a speed that's below your 1g stall speed. You need more than 1g to turn.  Do you understand why that won't work?

You can turn below your 1G stall speed - you will not be able to keep altitude though.
Most planes will have a problem to do it even with altitude loss because the (differential) lift on the wings will not be enough to counter the torque even at full aileron deflection - a state which is very dangerous because one wing will stall before the other (though in AH some planes suffer from this much more/less than others, and only a handful can enter a spin). The 38 enjoys its 0-torque situation and can bring the plane to down to very low speeds while keeping throttle at full power and "turning" (not level). Uneven stall can still happen if you pull into the stall with ailerons deflected, so it takes a gentle hand.

[FLS]

The OP describes a low alt circle not a descending spiral. 

You turn with radial g. In a level turn the g that turns you is a portion of your total g load. If the total is less than one then how much g is left for turning you?

[bozon]

The OP describes a low alt circle not a descending spiral. 

You turn with radial g. In a level turn the g that turns you is a portion of your total g load. If the total is less than one then how much g is left for turning you?

Fights rarely happen entirely in the horizontal. I know this is not what the OP was asking which is why I emphasized that this is not level turns and even used "turning" in quotation marks.

[Randy1]

The question is, has anyone in AH been able to maintain a continuous turn in a P-38 at 72mph and full throttle to match Byers statement?

[Charge]

Isn't the question rather how much does the actual pitot lie at high AoA and what was the actual speed during the turn. The AH "pitot" does not lie at high AoA.... 

-C+