Author Topic: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers  (Read 3480 times)

Offline Karnak

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Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2015, 10:33:32 AM »
As i said, until proven otherwise. I dont know excatly how these maneuvers looked so its hard to say anything about them. But on the other hand, ist a big step from a corkscrew to a hammerhead.

Edit: did some search and corkscrews in lancs dont seems to be very near the maneuvers we do in AH:
(Image removed from quote.)

Prob effective against night fighters but not that violent.
I agree they were far less violent than what is done in AH, but they are also far more violent than a lot of people seem to think a heavy bomber did.
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Offline SlipKnt

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Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2015, 01:02:43 PM »
Our vice president of engineering many, many years ago told me the story of rolling a B17 in training for ww2.  Not on purpose.  The deicing boot failed on one wing.  He said by the time he figured out what happened, he had no choice but finish the roll. He said to his knowledge no one had ever rolled a B17.

On the wish.  Do away with F3 and that will help a lot.

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Offline Interceptor

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Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2015, 01:30:33 PM »
Then why can they drop bombs at 90° angle ingame atm with no problem?

Those are bomb clearance angles for dropping bombs, not aircraft limits for evasive maneuvers.

Offline Beefcake

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Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2015, 03:06:50 PM »
Then why can they drop bombs at 90° angle ingame atm with no problem?

They can't drop bombs at a 90 degree angle in AH. Or let me rephrase that, if a B17 pilot is dropping his bombs at 90 degrees then his wings are already gone or he's about to lose them. Pilots in AH have a lot of misconceptions of what bombers can and cannot do.

I have to just ask what is the point of all this? Is there a serious epidemic of bombers performing violent maneuvers shooting down fighters everywhere? Or is just yet another wish to impose restrictions on bomber pilots so they have to fly in ways other people what them to?
Retired Bomber Dweeb - 71 "Eagle" Squadron RAF

Offline Zimme83

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Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2015, 04:03:15 PM »
I agree they were far less violent than what is done in AH, but they are also far more violent than a lot of people seem to think a heavy bomber did.

I have never said they couldnt maneuver, but doing aerobatics are a different thing. Buffs should handle like they did irl, if it takes forever to complete a roll due to heavy stick forces then it should be that way in AH too.
The corkscrew is prob near the limit, the pilot was most likley not strong enough to do anything more violent.
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Offline Drane

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Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2015, 04:05:04 PM »
I have to just ask what is the point of all this? Is there a serious epidemic of bombers performing violent maneuvers shooting down fighters everywhere? Or is just yet another wish to impose restrictions on bomber pilots so they have to fly in ways other people what them to?

Watch what the lancs do in this film.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,373417.0.html
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Offline bustr

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Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2015, 04:32:46 PM »
Those are bomb clearance angles for dropping bombs, not aircraft limits for evasive maneuvers.

Then you didn't watch a Lancaster last night in the MA dropping bombs banked almost 90 degrees while out turning fighters over the field I was gunning at. Those are the angles if not followed during bombing, the bombs are supposed to damage the Lancaster. I have watched this with all of our other bombers over the last 12 years.

Airjer's B26 popup fling bombing is not possible at the angle he pulls up while pitching his load. The nose is too steep which should have the highest bombs in the back of the bay hitting the back bottom of the bay on the way out. The B17 handbook has a complicated chart of what the maximum angles are for every single type of bomb it could carry tied to each mount station in the bomb bay. It appears structural damage of your own aircraft visa your own munitions kinetically striking it is not modeled. 

If you really wanted to know the maneuvering angles, you would have already done the research like I did for bomb drop angles.
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This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Beefcake

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Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2015, 04:58:45 PM »
Just brainstorming here at work, to be honest I think what bombers need is something like interrupter gear....except for bombs. That would be the simplest solution.

An example would be the Planeside 1 Liberator Bomber, while flying this aircraft you could only roll or pitch about 20 degrees otherwise the bombbay would lock and prevent the release of bombs until the plane leveled out. You could still fly it like a fighter since it was a gunship but you could only drop bombs in level flight or while hovering.

Something similar could be used in Aces High, instead of modeling bomb bays or bomb collision you could just simply code in the historical bomb release limits for each bomber. If the bomber banks or pitches more than whats allowed they just simple can't release their bombs until they're leveled back out. This would allow bomber pilots to make defensive maneuvers but would prevent them from bombing at wild angles. It would also allow guys like me who do stupid stuff like dogfigthing in bombers to continue to do so.

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Offline bustr

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Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2015, 05:58:44 PM »
Hitech would have to factor in the weight of the bombs and the effect on the ability to maneuver. The Lancaster I watched last night was pitching bombs during much of it's aerobatic maneuvering.

It may be a reality that Hitech chose to allow this so players would fly bombers. Over the years he has shown an appreciation of a balance between reality, and giving a few inches in favor of keeping players playing. Look at no engine management. Many players have asked for it specifically so it will punish you with engine damage for not remembering to effectively put the toilet lid down after every whizz. Engine nannyism.

When you research WW2 engines, you find they would not have been allowed for military aircraft if they didn't have a minimum 100hr life span, and could run on WEP or full throttle none stop for up to 10 hours. Most engine management and engine use limits were either for fuel conservation, extending engine life, or avoid spark plug fouling. So engine management in our game would be a simple mental mastibatory toy for those with that attraction to anality of the mind. And a way to clip our ACM monsters wings with engine nannyism. Things like that are not enjoyable to the piu, piu, piu crowd.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline eddiek

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Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2015, 01:32:15 AM »


I had to put my gameplay on hold due to slow work recently, and haven't witnessed some of the drastic maneuvers that were mentioned in another thread. 
I DO remember way way back when, in the early days of AH, a certain pilot (I can't recall his name, too many years gone by) that would wait til you got into firing range and split S and get away or distance himself with the maneuver enough to force pursuers to restart the chase.  I recall some of the better sticks in the game at the time getting frustrated if not downright ticked off at seeing it happen..throttling back to try to stay with him never seemed to work. Jugs, Corsairs, Spits, 109's, 190's............didn't matter what the pursuers were flying, you could not match the B17 split S.  You would black out trying, and meanwhile, he would have opened up the range to 3 or 4K again.
My point is this:  Weird flight performance and maneuvers from buffs have been in the game about as long as I can remember.  Whether by design, for gameplay equality or something, I have no idea. 
Only "questionable" thing I saw recently was a set of B17's hitting like 340 or 350 mph at 33K or more, and according to the film, not descending to gain that speed.  I broke contact and went out of range so can't tell you if they help that velocity for any length of time, but it was strange seeing it. 
I do wonder if the higher alts reveal buggy things in the flight models.  I remember an issue some years back where the TBM would hit over 400 mph at high alts..........I believe it was like 450+.  Someone sent in a film of it and it got fixed pretty soon afterwards.

Offline bustr

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Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2015, 06:10:35 AM »
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Karnak

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Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2015, 07:02:44 AM »
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Offline Interceptor

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Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2015, 08:26:25 AM »
The point is that atm, bombers can drop at impossible angles, or can do loopings with full bomb load, which is killing any realism.

They can't drop bombs at a 90 degree angle in AH. Or let me rephrase that, if a B17 pilot is dropping his bombs at 90 degrees then his wings are already gone or he's about to lose them. Pilots in AH have a lot of misconceptions of what bombers can and cannot do.

I have to just ask what is the point of all this? Is there a serious epidemic of bombers performing violent maneuvers shooting down fighters everywhere? Or is just yet another wish to impose restrictions on bomber pilots so they have to fly in ways other people what them to?

Offline FTJR

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Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2015, 08:45:29 AM »
Alex Henshaw regularly barrel rolled Lancasters during demonstration flights.  However I agree more of a problem when they drop stuff.
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Offline bustr

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Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2015, 03:20:56 PM »
How many of you ever read the spit9-14 hand books concerning bomb dropping?

Never exceed angles
Wing Bombs - 60 degrees
Fuselage - 40 degrees

Mosquitos have warnings about only jettisoning wing tanks flying level and at specific speeds with no yaw (175-260 knots). Firing rockets are prohibited while wing tanks are connected and up to 60 sec after jettisoning. Bomb bay doors can be opened up to 305 knots.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.