Author Topic: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina  (Read 3989 times)

Offline HPriller

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F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« on: July 07, 2015, 08:51:38 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/07/us/south-carolina-aircraft-incident/index.html

My guess is this is probably some fresh faced national guard n00b who thought "Hey, buzzing this Cessna should be hilarious".

The only way I could think of the Cessna being at fault was if he was in airspace he shouldn't have been in (i.e. close to the Viper's base during his takeoff or landing pattern).  However the crash site was ~75 miles from the base so that's ruled out.  Anyone else care to hazard a guess.

How did the F-16 NOT see the Cessna either visually or on radar, it pretty much had to come from right in front of him seeing how the F-16 is stalling out at the top speed of the cessna

Offline Ripsnort

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2015, 08:55:03 PM »
I suspect no 'noob' -bisim was involved. Two aircraft in potentially uncontrolled airspace with a similar civilian and military flight plan, one traveling 110 kts and the other 300 kts, rolled the dice, hit the lotto...converged.

Offline mikeWe9a

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2015, 09:18:35 PM »


Aircraft on a collision course are extremely hard to see, as they make essentially no movement against the background.  This is especially true if the aircraft is small (e.g. a Cessna) or painted with a low-visibility paint scheme (e.g. F-16).  If there are houses, etc., on the ground it is even harder, as there is more visual clutter for the pilots to sort through while searching.  If neither knew the other was there (i.e. ATC callout) then the possibility of never seeing the other aircraft are pretty high.  I've flown within two miles of aircraft in built up areas and even with ATC callout and TCAS giving a good idea where to look, you can't always find the other aircraft.

As to the radar, doppler radars are able to pick out targets by filtering out the ground return - slow moving aircraft, particularly ones moving perpendicular (or close to perpendicular) to the radar may not be picked up due to the return falling within the ground clutter.

Mike

Offline Oldman731

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2015, 09:34:02 PM »
Aircraft on a collision course are extremely hard to see, as they make essentially no movement against the background.  This is especially true if the aircraft is small (e.g. a Cessna) or painted with a low-visibility paint scheme (e.g. F-16).  If there are houses, etc., on the ground it is even harder, as there is more visual clutter for the pilots to sort through while searching.  If neither knew the other was there (i.e. ATC callout) then the possibility of never seeing the other aircraft are pretty high.  I've flown within two miles of aircraft in built up areas and even with ATC callout and TCAS giving a good idea where to look, you can't always find the other aircraft.

As to the radar, doppler radars are able to pick out targets by filtering out the ground return - slow moving aircraft, particularly ones moving perpendicular (or close to perpendicular) to the radar may not be picked up due to the return falling within the ground clutter.


I absolutely agree about how difficult it is to spot enemy planes.  About two years ago, thinking about this, I asked an F16 pilot (he was giving a talk about interceptions in TFRs) what would happen if, for example, a harmless oldman in his Saratoga was flying low in an IR route (two of those are over our place in Maine) and he was doing a low-level mission in that route.  Would there be time for him to see me, much less avoid me, given the relative speeds of the planes and the low altitudes?  He thought it was a funny question, and told me that there would be at least a minute or more when I was on his radar and that he probably would be targeting me for practice.

With that as my only informed-opinion-background, I did wonder what happened with the poor 150 today.

What a way to go, though.

- oldman
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 09:35:57 PM by Oldman731 »

Offline eagl

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2015, 10:23:41 PM »
My guess is this is probably some fresh faced national guard n00b who thought "Hey, buzzing this Cessna should be hilarious".

This is an ignorant thing to say.  Maybe you didn't mean it out of malice but it shows a profound lack of knowledge of both military and general aviation.

I've been flying for about 27 years now.  In that time I've had about 5 "near midairs", a few while flying cessnas and a few flying military aircraft.  "See and avoid" is the responsibility for everyone involved, however its ironic that as others have already said, the hardest aircraft to see is the one you're about to collide with.  This is because there is no apparent motion, or "line of sight", to catch your attention.  An aircraft on a collision course initially looks like a motionless dot.  It slowly grows bigger and if you're not staring at it, the time from when it becomes more than just a dot to when it is obviously another aircraft may be mere seconds and you'll miss it.  Visual scanning techniques to combat this problem can be taught but they take practice and discipline to master and use effectively.  And even then, sometimes the most intense visual scan isn't enough.  Sometimes the other aircraft is masked by environmental conditions like sun angle or haze, sometimes a canopy frame or wing is hiding the other plane.

Stating that a midair must obviously be the fault of a careless military pilot is really pretty ignorant and insulting.  An awful lot of people would take grave offense, but I'm going to assume that you just don't know any better.

My first near-midair came when I was a 35 hour student pilot, just buzzing around southern California in a Cessna 150 building hours and experience.  I went nose to nose with an old A-7 corsair who had his landing gear down and was flying in uncontrolled airspace much lower than I ever expected a military jet to be.  In hindsight, I think he was probably getting vectors to a long instrument final to NAS Miramar since I was probably 15-20nm east of Miramar and within a few miles of the extended runway centerline.  He must have been at absolute minimum vectoring altitude due to the mountains we were flying over, and he must have been getting very extended vectors for him to be so far out with his gear already down.  I was slightly lower than him, so he probably never saw me through the somewhat restricted low-fwd view of most naval fighters due to radomes and thick canopy frames.  For my part, I was sightseeing and saw him just in time to think WTF as he flew by within about 100 ft, nose to nose, slightly higher and off my left wing.  Fault?  Nobody except maybe an overworked radar approach controller who vectored this guy into a student training corridor at a fairly typical Cessna sightseeing altitude.  I was squawking VFR but "not participating" so legally the controller may not have been required to provide separation, but that navy pilot was for damn sure relying on the approach controller to keep him separated from other traffic since he was likely heads-down flying on instruments.  Thing is, even on an IFR clearance and shooting an instrument approach, if you're in VFR/VMC conditions then all pilots are still required to maintain a visual lookout.

So as for fault... I suppose that'll come out in an investigation.  But if they were in VMC conditions and one or both was not participating in an IFR controlled environment, then its really both their responsibility.  If they were in a published low-level route, then the unlucky civilian pilot either didn't plan his route very well or he tried his luck flying through a military training area one too many times.  I always thought GA pilots who flew through high volume MOAs were idiots, same goes for GA pilots who like to hang out in published military training low level routes.  It may not be illegal, but they're taking their lives into their own hands when they do so and placing blame on the other guy doesn't make them any less dead.

That was always one of my biggest challenges as a UPT instructor...  Keeping high enough SA so I could both monitor what my student was doing and still keep up my visual lookout.  I can't count the number of times I had to take the controls to abort some training or aerobatic maneuver because a GA aircraft wandered through our training area.  They have every right to be there, but they're taking a bigger gamble than most realize when they ignore widely published warnings about high volume military student training.  We had a midair near Sheppard several years ago between a T-37 and a cropduster, up at around 7000'. The cropduster was transiting through a high volume transit route between Sheppard and our auxiliary field in Frederick OK without a radio or transponder.  The instructor pilot was probably busy instructing his student, and they collided.  Military guys survived due to ejection seats and parachutes, cropduster pilot died.  Both were "legally" in the right, both had the responsibility to see and avoid.  The military guys were in the middle of a known high-volume student corridor, the cropduster was right there too with no radio contact and no transponder.  Who has the greater responsibility for what happened, the guys predictably doing what they were supposed to do, or the guy in an unexpected place taking no precautions against what ultimately happened?  It doesn't matter, the cropduster pilot died doing something perfectly legal and it could reasonably be summed up as a failure to see and avoid in VFR flight without placing blame either way.

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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2015, 01:08:41 AM »
That reporter annoyed me. What an opinionated biatch. Kinda like the OP. "Breakdown of the air safety system" my butt... It's called uncontrolled airspace for a reason.
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Offline Randy1

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2015, 05:21:51 AM »
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/07/us/south-carolina-aircraft-incident/index.html

My guess is this is probably some fresh faced national guard n00b who thought "Hey, buzzing this Cessna should be hilarious".
.  .  .


Might be the F16 was on a low level flight course.   One of those runs over my house.  I have seen the color of a pilots helmet when the make a hard banking turn over the house.

Offline Zimme83

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2015, 07:35:07 AM »
The F-16 should be able to pick up the transponder of the cessna i guess.
Flew home our plane last year while the AF did some low level flying in uncontrolled airspace and even if i didnt had any flight plan I got a transponder code by the tower and were told to contact Sweden control when i left controlled airspace (not adviced, ordered). The civilian and military ATC are also connected so they can pass on information to eatch other.
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Offline SysError

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2015, 09:37:04 AM »
... I always thought GA pilots who flew through high volume MOAs were idiots, same goes for GA pilots who like to hang out in published military training low level routes.  It may not be illegal, but they're taking their lives into their own hands when they do so and placing blame on the other guy doesn't make them any less dead.

I agree with you about the crazy risks they are taking but the legality if it surprises me.

This past 4th we were at a family house on Lake Wateree SC.  We are about 50 miles NW of Shaw AFB.  (The F-16 collision was about 100 miles SE of Shaw AFB).

In the morning of either on the day before or the day after the 4tt, two F-16s came in from the south at perhaps 200 feet off the lake.  They could move.  Pilots seem to like Lake Wateree, it is about 20 miles long and not very populated.   Not usual to see F-16s there, (The Shaw AFB Recreation area is a mile or two south of us and sometimes you get the feeling that pilots are buzzing the recreation area for the amusement of their buddies.  It is just a guess and I am not begrudging them.  Sounds fun.)

About 10 minutes after the F-16s came in from the south, a biplane came in from the north around 100 – 200 feet off the lake.  It went down the far side of the lake (the lake is on average about 2 miles wide), turned around went north on our side of the lake.

About 15 (maybe 20) minutes after that the F-16s came back, going a little faster (I had an obstructed view on their return so I’m not sure about their alt.)

I do not understand why jets and biplanes are allowed in the same air space.  It just makes no sense to me.  Call it “uncontrolled airspace” or whatever you want, it is just plain stupid to have these planes in the same space.

What are the rules in Europe?

(I guess I have the same question about Canada)


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Offline HPriller

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2015, 09:47:30 AM »
All I'm saying is this pretty much has to come down to human error.   In my biased and ignorant estimation, given the circumstances, it's most likely that the F-16 pilot (or his controllers) fouled up.  I see this as akin to a Ferrari running down pedestrian.

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2015, 10:02:56 AM »
The blame still does not automatically default to the Ferrari.
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Offline eagl

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2015, 12:09:13 PM »
Its legal for civil aircraft to transit VFR through an active Military Operating Area (MOA), and as they are not participating in radar services there may be no traffic callout from radar controllers to either aircraft for deconfliction.  In practice, at least at UPT bases, the radar controllers keep a fairly close eye on the MOAs and transit corridors and do their best to provide callouts even though technically neither aircraft is legally bound to comply with ATC instructions if they're VFR.  At Sheppard for example, it is wing policy for wing aircraft to comply with ATC "advisory" directions even if the military aircraft is operating VFR.

It is also legal for civil aircraft to fly in published low level routes, even high speed "IR" routes where an aircraft can enter and exit from an IFR flight plan.  A competent and aware GA pilot ought to know when he's flying in those routes so he can keep an eye out for military aircraft who, in those routes, are typically flying between 500' and 1500' AGL and up to around 540 kts.  Military aircraft use every means available to deconflict from civilian aircraft but at those speeds its challenging.

As for the F-16 being able to see IFF transponders, when I was last in the fighter world the F-16 radar was not capable of IFF interrogation.  Maybe that's changed, dunno.  USAF T-6 aircraft have a sort of poor-man's TCAS that displays approximate bearing and range to any transponder signals it receives, but it isn't terribly accurate and it won't see an aircraft with a weak, inoperable, or switched off transponder.  I think T-38s might have been retro-fitted with a similar system with the latest avionics upgrades but I don't know for sure.  I'm also not sure about the T-1 but I don't think they do low-level training anymore...?

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Offline Zimme83

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2015, 01:28:18 PM »
As i said: Her in Sweden the Gripens can see the transponder so as long as u have it on it should be no problem. In the case i wrote about in my last post me and the Fighters were on crossing paths and then the ATC said "there are low level fighters in the area, contact Sweden control when leaving controlled airspace. Normally i dont have to contact anyone but in this case they that they wanted to have control on our pos and why.


During bigger excersices like ACE 15 they shut down the entire air space.
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Offline earl1937

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2015, 03:52:05 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/07/us/south-carolina-aircraft-incident/index.html

My guess is this is probably some fresh faced national guard n00b who thought "Hey, buzzing this Cessna should be hilarious".

The only way I could think of the Cessna being at fault was if he was in airspace he shouldn't have been in (i.e. close to the Viper's base during his takeoff or landing pattern).  However the crash site was ~75 miles from the base so that's ruled out.  Anyone else care to hazard a guess.

How did the F-16 NOT see the Cessna either visually or on radar, it pretty much had to come from right in front of him seeing how the F-16 is stalling out at the top speed of the cessna
:airplane: A couple of notes after viewing some comments!
#1 When an aircraft is at your own altitude, it will be on the horizon and very difficult to see!
#2 I doubt is the 150 had a transponder, but that is not unheard of!
#3 There are known and published "kerosene" routes, which the military uses to train in. It is not un common at all to see everything in the military flying these routes at speeds approaching the speed of sound, for training purposes.
I suspect that the F-16 was approaching from the rear or from the front, that would be the two hardest outlines to see from another a/c.
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Offline MiloMorai

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