Author Topic: Observation on Soviet WW2 tactics/aircraft based on Russian resources  (Read 1644 times)

Offline artik

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1909
      • Blog
I recently read some resources in Russian about WW2, including memories,
interviews and analysis.

Some observations that may be overlooked by Western sources:

Aircraft analysis

Hurricane

The hero of BoB, it was almost universally disliked aircraft (which BTW can't be told on I-16).
It was nicknamed as Hunchback (yes, similarly to IL-2)
The original armament of 8 or 12 .303 cal was replaced by two ShVAK canons and two 12.7mm soviet MG
(probably UBS) according to at least two different resources.
The original back armor was replaced with the armor of LaGG-3 as original was considered too weak.

LaGG-3

Was actually liked by the pilots as modern aircraft in the beginning of the war despite being inferior to
lighter Yak-1 that shared the same engine. It was liked for powerful armament and could
compete against 109 on almost equal terms in real battle.

It should be noted that LaGG-3 was produced up to 1944(!) but the engine was upgraded to more powerful
105PF.

The nickname "Lakirovannyi Garantiroannyi Grob", or "Guaranteed Varnished Coffin"  was actually invented
only after WW2 and never used by its pilots.

Pe-2

Also being designed as dive bomber until the middle of the war it
was mostly used as level bomber - as dive bombing was much more dangerous for the crew.

It was very fast bomber, after an attack Pe-2 used to escape in shallow diving. And escort
had problems keeping up with them and sometimes loosing them - because of that fighter pilots
sometimes didn't liked the task because loosing the bombers you escort was very bad for them.

Yak-1

It was considered the best plane in early period from both Soviet and Lend-Lease.

Yak-1 served for a long period and it easy to get confused.  Starting from summer 1942 Yak-1
was produced with upgraded 105PF engine which had performance comparable to that of 109G.

MiG-3

Was one of the most widely available modern aircraft in the beginning of the war. It was very good
high altitude fighter superior to 109s altitudes above 5,000m. But it was unsuitable to Eastern
front because most of fights were done at lower altitudes, so it served later mostly in PVO units.


IL-2

Shturmovik pilots feared the enemy fighters much more than AAA.

Rear gunner casualties myth. It is widely published that pilot to gunner casulties were 1:7.
But according to other resources the casualties among the gunners were only marginally higher.
For example 872 ShAP in 1944 lost 29 pilots and 31 gunners.
However according to other pilot memories gunners had higher casualties than pilots.
I assume the reality highly dependent on situation, type of IL-2 and the threat (AAA or fighters)

Shturmoviks used to stay for a while over the target using first bombs, that rockets than canons and
machine guns. i.e. they "worked" on target making many passes sometimes for a long time. Fighter escort
usually kept at least 1000m above because of fear of AAA(!)

If some IL-2 were damaged and couldn't keep up with the formation, the escort fighter group used to split
a section from the major escort providing cover the damaged planes.

According to Alfred Grislawski (133 victories, 109 claims recorded over the Eastern Front, 16 were Il-2
Sturmoviks.) IL-2 was the hardest bomber to shut down (at least at eastern front).
you had to shoot very accurately to very specific airframe parts. Once IL-2s got rear gunners it become even harder.

Interesting story about IL-2 pilot - a young pilot in its 3rd combat flight on his first day managed
return with 5x37mm hits



Damage: elevator, right wing strut, right aileron, right canon, multiple small damage to body and wings.
The aircraft was written off.

At the beginning of the war they flew mostly at tree top popping up close to the target and later
had flown at ~1000m.

Weapons

Almost universally wing armament was disliked due to convergence issues and effect on roll rate.

Central line armament was preferred and considered more efficient.
For example P-40s and P-39 if possible were flown without MG in wings. Early LaGG-3 type 4 and
type 7 had 1x20mm ShVAK canon, 2x12.7mm  UBS and 2x7.62mm ShKAS, all MG synchronized also ShKAS were
removed in later types.

La-5 ShVAK was frequently loaded with only around 60 rpg because it was considered that more rounds
are dead weight - in any case short bursts are used.

RS-82

I noticed that in many resources RS-82 were used in air-to-air roles. It is interesting as it was
considered to be feared by LW and used efficiently to break bomber formations.

Tactics

One of the major factors I noticed is that all missions were very task oriented, i.e. you need
to execute the orders no-mater what.

If you are flying as IL-2 escort you need to stay with them from the beginning to the end.
Escort was not allowed to engage targets of opportunity. As an example a group of IL-2 and Yaks
were returning from a mission met a group of Ju-87 on way back. They didn't attack it also
they had all chances because they need to give stay with ILs. Only a single Ju-87 that
"left" behind and broke the formation was engaged and shut down in very short way with
the permission of a group leader.

Protecting the bombers was given much higher priority than shutting down enemy 109s.

For interception the most important thing was prevent bombers from dropping accurately.
Most interception were done on their way to the target rather than way back (BTW it was
different for LW that commonly intercepted the bombers on way back).

LW bombers Ju-88, He-111 and of course Ju-87 were dropping bombs frequently under attack and
it was used. It was much more important to prevent from bombers to effectively attack the
target than to destroy them.

Many Soviet pilot felt that Germans were much less committed to their task than Soviet once in both escort role and interception. They felt that a personal score was much higher factor than mission (i.e. kill more planes rather protect bombers or disrupt bomb run).

IL-2 vs Ju-87 tactics

IL-2 had flown a low altitude - 1000m to the target, escort had never flown before them to
keep the surprise effect. Escort required to stay close enough and protect the bombers. Only
later when more fighters were avalible there was a close escort (usually Yaks) and higher altitude
sweep - usually La-5 and P-39s.

In comparison the Ju-87 usually did one pass and left the area. Escorting 109s usually arived
shortly before Stukas on target to provide cover. It gave better
protection agaist fighter but also appearance of 109s allowed
the forces on the ground to take cover prepare AAA - i.e. surprise effect was lost
in most of cases using such a tactics.

When LW fighter were tasked to intercept a group of IL-2 they frequenly "waited" to
concentrate more forces beefore attack - sometimes allowing IL-2s to work and
acctacked them only after they completed the task.


Aircraft Roles

Yak-1/7/9 - were used most efficiently at escrort duties - escorting IL-2 and Pe-2s.
La-5s/7 - higher altitude cover, air superiority
P-39 - high altitude cover and long range escort.


Systems

Radio was big problem utill mid/late war. On some planes it had poor quality - even La-5 had flown with
receivers only of poor quality. Also I may note that during WW2 only Japanese planes lacked radios.

RDF were rare and had poor quality. Even Yak-9D - long range Yaks had installation of RDF only on some of
the planes the rest lacked such navigation equipment.

LaGG-3 had interesting systems of filling the fuel tanks with "inert gas" - cooled engine exhaust gas to reduce
the chance of the tank to explode. Such systems were later incorporated on other machines. Lend-Least B-25
were equipped with such a system as local modification.



I hope you find this interesting
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline 715

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1835
Re: Observation on Soviet WW2 tactics/aircraft based on Russian resources
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2015, 12:13:58 PM »
I hope you find this interesting

I did.  Thank you.

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9503
Re: Observation on Soviet WW2 tactics/aircraft based on Russian resources
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2015, 12:45:35 PM »
Thanks for this, Artik.

- oldman

Offline morfiend

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10470
Re: Observation on Soviet WW2 tactics/aircraft based on Russian resources
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2015, 01:15:33 PM »
 Good stuff Artik,I have some Russian PDF's but the translation is so bad it's painful to read!  A real shame because I'm interested in how the Russians operated but as I said most the stuff is just to difficult to read!

    If you have more to add plz do,I'm sure I'm not the only person interested in this kind of stuff.


    :salute

Offline JVboob

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 723
Re: Observation on Soviet WW2 tactics/aircraft based on Russian resources
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2015, 05:51:30 AM »
I found it very interesting.
"Sighhhhhhhhhh, office closed do to ice for a day, And I miss a thread like this.."HiTech
Armed N Hammered 2002-2003
JG44 Night Hawks/JV44 Butcher Birds 2003-2009
49th Fighter Group fightn' 49ers Feb2012-present
138th FW Tulsa, OK 2009-2015

Offline artik

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1909
      • Blog
Re: Observation on Soviet WW2 tactics/aircraft based on Russian resources
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2015, 06:21:25 AM »
Notes from talks with Puniev - he flown Pe-2.

He started flying combat missions in autumn 1942 on SB bomber. Was heavily wounded at his 11th flight, he escaped burning bomber but survived. He returned from hospital in February 1943 and started training on Pe-2. He flew 43 combat missions at 1s Ukrainian front and 9 "returns"[1] he flew at Karelian front as well but but no exact records left.

Only about 1/5th of Pe-2 missions were performed in dive bombing, the rest, level bombing. The decisive factor was weather, if the clouds below 3,000m (10,000ft) it was impossible to do dive bomb run, so level bombing was used. Typical bombing procedure was to start at 3,000m (10,000ft) at around 1,800m (5,900ft) exiting dive started the trim was changed automatically and the dive ended at around 1,100-1,200m (3,600-3,900ft). The dive itself was done at around 70°.

The dive bombing procedure is very interesting. On the way to the target navigator (and bombardier - it was same role in soviet air force) measured the wind drift (similar to the way it is done in level bombing) and using this data pilot adjusted the collimator sight angles with correction to the wind drift. During the dive navigator controlled the altitude and gave a command to drop the bomb so the pilot was concentrated on aiming.

The normal accuracy was of 40-50m, also accuracy of 10m was quite common as well. Every drop was controlled photographically - it was done automatically with camera installed on the aircraft.

It also describes training they did at period of relative quiet time. A target of 10m radius was drawn on the ground and pilots did the drops until they hit the circle with at least one bomb, it sometimes required 3-4 "sorties"

PTAB bombs were used as well. In one case in 1945 a big concentration of armored forces was detected. Weather horrible, cloud base at 350m, urgently 3 formations of 5 Pe-2 were called with experienced crews armed PTABs.

The managed to get directly over target but they couldn't drop as it was too late, so they turned and did another pass and dropped PTABs from 350m level and continued to overflow the target to make photo control. At the 2nd pass all AAA was shooting at them.  Many aircraft returned with such holes that you could put human head in. However no
planes were lost. Later intelligence reported 72 destroyed tanks alone, not including other vehicles.

The bombs in internal bomb bays couldn't be used for dive bombing as they wouldn't live the bay, so if both internal
and external loads were used, first pass was done using dive bombing and 2nd using level bombing from around 1,100-1,200m. Sometimes dive bombing was done in two passes but it was very risky because you need to climb to altitude between passes.

It was very maneuverable bomber, also formally aerobatics was forbidden but some did rolls and other tricks. It could escape enemy fighters in the dive. Due to its high speed and maneuverability, Pe-2 flown in tight formation wasn't easy to shut down even without fighter cover. He tells that they used to "met" enemy fighters almost every 2nd combat missions.

It one situation when he was on "free hunt" [2] he was intercepted by two 109s. He maneuvered hard tried to escape and finally they left him (probably due to lack of fuel). He considered that the combination of defense firepower with maneuverability made Pe-2 quite survivable.

Average live time of a single Pe-2 was around 30 combat missions.

He considers Pe-2 to on best dive bomber (in his opinion) and compares.

Tu-2 - but he came too late, he never saw one during the war.
Ju-87 was good at the beginning but it was finally old and when AAA become stronger and it should do bombing from higher altitude it become much less accurate.
Fw-190 or P-47 - he considers Pe-2 much more efficient due to higher accuracy - combination of navigation with pilot, correction for wind an more.

Pe-2 wasn't considered easy to fly however he tells that it dependent on pilot experience, if rookie pilot flew it - it may be dangerous but in general Pe-2 was delightful to fly.



Bottom line for Pe-2

- Both level and true dive bomber (not glide but real deep dive)
- Highly accurate in dive bombing 10m accuracy not uncommon, due to combination of navigator that provided wind compensation
- Many missions flown in level bombing mostly due to weather restrictions
- Far from defenseless, could escape fighters in dive.


[1] Mission not executed due to technical issues, inability to find target due to weather, or missing photo-control of executed mission.
[2] When they flew to find targets on will and engage them
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 06:31:14 AM by artik »
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline 715

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1835
Re: Observation on Soviet WW2 tactics/aircraft based on Russian resources
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2015, 12:53:50 PM »
I wonder why HT chose the Tu-2 over the Pe-2?

Offline artik

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1909
      • Blog
Re: Observation on Soviet WW2 tactics/aircraft based on Russian resources
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2015, 01:19:58 PM »
I wonder why HT chose the Tu-2 over the Pe-2?

I assume Tu-2 is more suitable to MA with its huge bomb load. Also I think Pe-2 historically would be much better choice.

Pe-2 is something like Beaufighter or Mosquito VI and XVI but capable of both true dive bombing of 60-70 degrees and level bombing and having more moderate performance in comparison to fast Mosquito.

One thing AH is missing significantly is PTAB bomb load, it would make IL-2 and Pe-2 way deadlier.

Originally Pe-2 was designed as a heavy fighter...
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 01:23:39 PM by artik »
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline artik

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1909
      • Blog
Re: Observation on Soviet WW2 tactics/aircraft based on Russian resources
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2015, 03:23:58 AM »
Additional notes:

Also Tu-2 was developed as both level and dive bomber, it was never used in dive bombing role and later dive brakes were removed. Pe-2 was major dive bomber in Soviet air force. It had very limited use in 42/43 and only 63 aircraft saw combat service in these years. Newer Tu-2S with M-82FN engines appeared in front line service in spring 44.

If you compare the numbers, Pe-2 served from the beginning to the end of the war and totally 11,427 were built.  Only 1,216 Tu-2 were built during the war in 1942-45 and only few (63) were in service in 1942-43.

Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel