Author Topic: P-38 Compressibility  (Read 7489 times)

Offline FLS

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Re: P-38 Compressibility
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2015, 07:48:15 PM »
Again.......the specificiation for the 25k remark was 45 degree dive angle.

Now if you're already going super fast as you pass through 25k and push over vertical, then it can easily happen below 25k.

Super fast requires you start above 25k  and trade altitude for speed. Passing through 25k  is not starting from 25k. Start at max level speed at 25k and try to make .74 Mach at any dive angle.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 07:51:13 PM by FLS »

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: P-38 Compressibility
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2015, 11:26:35 PM »

Other than not diving as aggressively in a P-38 as one would do in commonly known dive monsters (like P-47, FW190, F6 etc.), is there a way to prevent the controls from stiffening or is that an inherent trait of the P-38 when diving?

Thanks for putting the answer to this in English for us P-38 novices. :salute

Contrary to public opinion, you can dive the P-38 at high speeds safely.  The P-38 dives best at medium to low altitudes, the thicker the air the faster you can dive the Lightning.  Below 10,000ft, you can easily and safely reach speeds of 475mph IAS and slightly higher and retain control of the plane, although the controls will be sluggish due to the high speeds you're traveling at.

In a dive if I want to reach the maximum speed possible without suffering from the controls locking up, if in the altitude range of 20,000ft - 10,000ft, my dives tend to be low angle dives so I don't overspeed and avoid the high speed buffet and I will jockey the throttle to keep myself from getting too fast or to slow in the dive.  I'll also skid my plane to keep my speed under control, those two rudders make pretty good air brakes and can save your arse in a dive if you get too fast.  If you find yourself getting too fast and having a tough time pulling up, use the elevator trim to aid you in recovery.

10,000ft and below, it's balls to the wall in a dive and I'll dive at steep angles and use my roll rate to roll into the bandit as he tries to break to avoid my attack.  In high speeds dives like this, I'll again use the throttle and rudders (skid the plane) to keep my speed under control and to avoid overshooting the bandit and giving him the shot, I'll go into a lag turn after my first pass if I miss.
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Offline JVboob

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Re: P-38 Compressibility
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2015, 05:00:10 AM »
Ive ran from cons in an L model 500mph+ while maintaining control (on the very fringe limit of complete lock) and pulled out once they broke off of me. I wanna say 530mph+/- but screen was super shakey
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Offline 38ruk

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Re: P-38 Compressibility
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2015, 04:12:56 PM »
There are a ton of different ways to control the 38's speed in a dive , I use rudder mostly and throttle control . Using elevator trim you can ( at low angles) keep the plane in the buffet for quite awhile when trying to run some one down or egress . 

I was just taking some of what I read and interpreted it to mean,  then compared it to what i see in AHII . 

Offline icepac

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Re: P-38 Compressibility
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2015, 06:36:42 PM »
Super fast requires you start above 25k  and trade altitude for speed. Passing through 25k  is not starting from 25k. Start at max level speed at 25k and try to make .74 Mach at any dive angle.

I accept your challenge and will provide film.

Which model of P38 do you want me to use for refutation purposes.

Offline save

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Re: P-38 Compressibility
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2015, 09:38:46 AM »
That's still 80-90mph slower than the 190A

Ive ran from cons in an L model 500mph+ while maintaining control (on the very fringe limit of complete lock) and pulled out once they broke off of me. I wanna say 530mph+/- but screen was super shakey
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Offline FLS

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Re: P-38 Compressibility
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2015, 11:52:38 AM »
I accept your challenge and will provide film.

Which model of P38 do you want me to use for refutation purposes.

Challenge? The challenge was knowing the difference between "starting from" and "passing through".  :D

Pick any model and load and let us know what happens when you start above normal cruising speed at 25k.

Offline Randy1

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Re: P-38 Compressibility
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2015, 12:25:26 PM »
I have not been able to break 500 mph ias in a P-38L.  I have come real close to 500 mph IAS just as I reached the deck but not break 500.

Not saying it can't be done.

Offline icepac

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Re: P-38 Compressibility
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2015, 08:08:28 PM »
Challenge? The challenge was knowing the difference between "starting from" and "passing through".  :D

Pick any model and load and let us know what happens when you start above normal cruising speed at 25k.

And here is the film.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,204187.msg4988459.html#msg4988459

Offline earl1937

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Re: P-38 Compressibility
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2015, 04:14:45 PM »
Again.......the specificiation for the 25k remark was 45 degree dive angle.

Now if you're already going super fast as you pass through 25k and push over vertical, then it can easily happen below 25k.
:airplane: I'm confused! Both of the 38's we have in the game will compress at any altitude, or at least they have with me! Or, maybe all that shaking and rattling I encounter when diving is just "pot" holes in the road! LOL
If you enter it, just "chop" the throttle and hold down the "K" key and it will come right out of compressing! Just try a little "fishtailing" with the rudder on the way down, it will behave like a little kitten, not to mention helping you avoid ack from he base or town you are attacking!
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Offline Randy1

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Re: P-38 Compressibility
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2015, 07:13:27 AM »
:airplane: I'm confused! Both of the 38's we have in the game will compress at any altitude, or at least they have with me! . . .

Well that is true if your going fast enough. 

Offline drgondog

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Re: P-38 Compressibility
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2015, 04:35:28 PM »
For STP at SL, the data for M=1 is as follows
25K = 692.7mph TAS, at 20K = 706.9mph TAS, at 15K=720.8mph. MCr = >65M or 450mph at 25K, 459mph at 20K

at 25,000 feet during published flight tests with full internal fuel in the P38L the max level speed at WEP is 411mph TAS (,59M), at 20K it is 402mph (.57M). This is the flight regime when CDo starts going up exponentially (for a Mustang M=.65 for comparable Drag divergence)

So starting a dive at say max level speed in a chase at WEP at 25,000 feet, that P-38 only has to accelerate to .65M in 5000 feet to get to Mcr or 459mph TAS. Sound feasible in a 45 degree dive?

It does to me.  I think Bodie is wrong.
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Offline shift8

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Re: P-38 Compressibility
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2015, 11:56:20 PM »
To those of you on the first page who are quoting Bodie as stating the P-38 "did not compress" below 25,000ft, you are reading too lightly what Bodie actually said. DrgnDg is correct in stating that the P-38 would compress below 25k.

Specifically to AckAck(and others making this claim): The air below 25,000ft is not too thick to allow for compression. Rather, the change in air density causes the onset of compression EARLIER in terms of indicated airspeed at higher altitudes. It is 100% possible to compress at ANY altitude given enough speed. If you exceed your mach limit, it doesnt matter what altitude your at. It is just less likely that you would compress the lower you go because A: less space to accelerate B: Speed of sound changing due to altitude.

I think some of you might be misunderstanding what Bodie was saying in his P-38 book. It was not that the P-38 never compressed under 25k, but that under 25k, it was not the crippling operational hazard that it was higher up. IE: in a most engagements below 25k, it was difficult enough to compress that it was encounters less often and was not as big of a deal. Look closer in Bodies book and you will see that he posted charts in there that show that the P-38 WILL compress at lower heights, just at much higher IAS.


CASE IN POINT:

« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 11:58:09 PM by shift8 »

Offline Randy1

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Re: P-38 Compressibility
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2015, 05:59:03 AM »
From the manual
Quote
DIVE RECOVERY FLAPS

The airplane without these flaps becomes very nose heavy and starts to buffet above diagram dive speeds (Dia.2.). The dive recovery flaps which are installed under the wings between the booms and tile ailerons restore the lift to this portion of the wing and thus cause the uncontrollable nose heaviness to occur at a higher speed. The flaps also add some drag to the airplane which in conjunction with the higher allowable dive speed permits safer dives at a much steeper diving angle. The dive recovery flaps should be extended before starting the dive or immediately after the dive is started before a buffeting speed has been reached. If the airplane is buffeting before the dive recovery flaps are extended the buffeting will momentarily increase and then diminish. With these flaps extended, the nose heaviness is definitely reduced but the diving speed should never be allowed to exceed the placard by more than 15 or 20 mph. With the dive recovery flaps extended before entering the dive, angles of dive up to 45 degrees may be safely accomplished. Without dive recovery flaps extended the maximum angle for extending dives is 15 degrees. Diving characteristics are better with power off than power on.

Offline drgondog

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Re: P-38 Compressibility
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2015, 11:21:38 AM »
The 'nose heaviness' is caused by the change to the CMac when the onset shock wave migrates from ac (~T/C max) toward the middle of the wing - which moves the center of Pressure aft... which in turn causes the Nose Down Pitching moment.

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