Do preWar wars count?

[PJ_Godzilla]

You know me. I like to chuck a lit butt into the rattler pile now and again.

I was looking at the Boeing P-26's combat history. It had, in Chinese service, a number of kills against Imperial Japanese aircraft.

Arguably, Imperial Japanese operations in China were part of WWII, although not as generally defined.

You could also call the Spanish Civil War as, at the least, a nice precursor for all the delicious ultra-violence to follow.

One of the beautiful things about the inclusion of aircraft like P-26 or HE-112 into AH would be what I call the "beached turd" factor; the same one that keeps me flakking for inclusion of the Fairey Battle, the Blackburn Skua (which would sort of be uber in an SCW arena) and other similar early war junk. What would be the eny on such scrap tin?

In any case, I'm all for additional eras and aircraft, even from these sideshow theatres. Of course, in the MA (the only place we still have players) their use would be nearly nonexistent. But, if we had more playas...

[Rich46yo]

Jap/Sino much more then Spanish civil war and yes to me the actual war started with Japanese aggression in Asia. Its not so strange that many westerners still dont consider it so or even know much about it. Post war Japan rebuilding and the emerging threat of communism caused western powers to downplay Jap aggression in Asia in the '30,s. Even atrocities and justice for them were short changed because we wanted a strong Democratic Japan as a front line in the coming war vs communism. Even with staunch allies like Australia this was a sore point.

Pre-War Japan wasnt much different then pre-war Germany. Both were proud militaristic societies suffering badly from the world market crash. Both figured they got screwed by the rest of the world, most of all the west. Japan could barely feed itself and had problems with its main export "textiles" because of unfair tariffs and trade policys and they saw themselves scratching a living off a piece of rock while countries on the other side of the world controlled Asia's best farmlands and resources. They figured if America and European countries should have provinces in Asia then why shouldnt they? Most of all since they were western Allies in WWl.

So, like in Germany, an Ultra-Militaristic Govt. took over and began a war of conquest and Empire in 1931. As happened later in Germany, same exact thing, i.e. A Hemispheric war of aggression was launched for lebensraum and resources. WW2 started in 1931 and the P-26s kills do count.

Spain was a civil war not a world war. The parties involved, at least the Spanish, had no interest in attacking neighbors. Nor could they.

Its kind of sad most people would say the war started in 1939 when the Chinese people suffered so horribly at the hands of the Japanese who committed some of the worst atrocities of the war.

You know me. I like to chuck a lit butt into the rattler pile now and again.

I was looking at the Boeing P-26's combat history. It had, in Chinese service, a number of kills against Imperial Japanese aircraft.

Arguably, Imperial Japanese operations in China were part of WWII, although not as generally defined.

You could also call the Spanish Civil War as, at the least, a nice precursor for all the delicious ultra-violence to follow.

One of the beautiful things about the inclusion of aircraft like P-26 or HE-112 into AH would be what I call the "beached turd" factor; the same one that keeps me flakking for inclusion of the Fairey Battle, the Blackburn Skua (which would sort of be uber in an SCW arena) and other similar early war junk. What would be the eny on such scrap tin?

In any case, I'm all for additional eras and aircraft, even from these sideshow theatres. Of course, in the MA (the only place we still have players) their use would be nearly nonexistent. But, if we had more playas...

[Ack-Ack]

You know me. I like to chuck a lit butt into the rattler pile now and again.

I was looking at the Boeing P-26's combat history. It had, in Chinese service, a number of kills against Imperial Japanese aircraft.

Arguably, Imperial Japanese operations in China were part of WWII, although not as generally defined.

The Second Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) was pretty much considered separate from WW2 until the US became actively involved in the war after Pearl Harbor when the Second Sino-Japanese War would merge into the greater conflict of WW2.

Should the P-26 Pea Shooter be added to the game?  Actually kind of a tough question to ask because in the general sense, no, the Pea Shooter would be a waste of resources as it would be an undisputed hanger queen in any of the current arenas.  However, if the upcoming AH update includes arenas designed around some of the earlier conflicts that took place pre-World War II, like a Spanish Civil War arena or a 2nd Sino-Japanese War arena, then yes, the Pea Shooter does have a place in those types of arenas.

Oh...just one little fact about the P-26.  The P-26 also saw some very limited action in the Philippines with the Philippine Army Air Corps of the 6th Pursuit squadron, claiming one Betty bomber and a couple of Zekes.

You could also call the Spanish Civil War as, at the least, a nice precursor for all the delicious ultra-violence to follow.

We definitely need an arena based around the Spanish Civil War with the appropriate plane set for that conflict, I'm sure people would like to fly early versions of the Bf 109.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Spain was a civil war not a world war. The parties involved, at least the Spanish, had no interest in attacking neighbors. Nor could they.

One of the more interesting features of the war and Spain's relationship to Nazi Germany is the sanctuary provided to notables, post-war, like DeGrelle and Skorzeny.

I'm no apologist for Nazism, but I note that the SS managed to recruit a panoply of young nationals to go help in the fight versus Johnny Comm - some half a million conservatively. This was part of the reason DeGrelle, from his safe harbor in Espana, called Stalingrad the "death of western civ". Even some of the rhetoric around the whole endlosung, when examined more closely (something that reached out and touched me during a recent visit to London's Imperial War Museum) was focused on Bolshevism as a disease, ethnicity merely a vector. I think the accepted histories tend to focus more on the racial foundation, because of its abhorrence to most, as opposed to the ideological one, this last a fervor that inspired Western nations to military action at least as recently as but a few decades ago. Gone... but not entirely forgotten.

In any event, DeGrelle wrote a book, as did someone named Guy Sajer (Forgotten Soldier) and both are worthwhile, if not without the usual attached controversy and if for no other reason than balance.

As for applicability here, it is as Ack-Ack says, subject to the distinction you draw; a definitely separate event but one that might hold general interest.

[Ack-Ack]

In any event, DeGrelle wrote a book, as did someone named Guy Sajer (Forgotten Soldier) and both are worthwhile, if not without the usual attached controversy and if for no other reason than balance.

I had a tough time reading Degrelle's The Eastern Front: Memoirs of a Waffen SS Volunteer, 1941-1945 memoir.  Not because it was badly written, it wasn't but his views on almost everything are so opposed by me that I found his trying to justify the things he and the SS did tough to take.  It's easy to see why he was still considered a traitor by the Belgians after the war.

[Wmaker]

It has been a long time pipe dream of mine to have a pre-war arena. Something that would include combat aircraft from the early '30s until September '39. Relatively lightly armament, low wing loading and much more power than the WWI aircraft, combined with maps with shorter distances between fields than we have now in the LWMA sounds a lot of fun to me. There are so many aircraft from this era that are just fascinating.

It'll never happen though due to several reasons. A nice pipe dream though.

[Ack-Ack]

It has been a long time pipe dream of mine to have a pre-war arena. Something that would include combat aircraft from the early '30s until September '39. Relatively lightly armament, low wing loading and much more power than the WWI aircraft, combined with maps with shorter distances between fields than we have now in the LWMA sounds a lot of fun to me. There are so many aircraft from this era that are just fascinating.

It'll never happen though due to several reasons. A nice pipe dream though.

I think there is a possibility for such arenas in the next version of the game, these types of arenas would be a good way to "hook" potential new players.

[Wmaker]

these types of arenas would be a good way to "hook" potential new players.

Well, my personal feeling is pretty much the opposite. If we strictly speak about aircraft types and forget everything else, a potential new player with casual interest in aviation and WWII-era aircraft is more likely to be lured into the game by things like the P-51D and Spitfire rather than the more obscure pre-war types. Pre-war aircraft might bring back some of the older players who have quit playing but I don't think that would amount into a significant number of accounts.

Then there's the question of 3d-modelling rescources. AFAIK Waffle is the only guy at HTC producing new playable units currently and there's still a good number of AHI-vintage 3d-models to be updated...

[Devil 505]

I think there is a possibility for such arenas in the next version of the game, these types of arenas would be a good way to "hook" potential new players.

I agree. The inclusion of aircraft from the "Pre-War" era in other games indicates that there is an interest in these planes, and the conflicts that they were a part of. I would like to see these planes at some point, but only after the major holes in the WW2 plane-set are filled.

[Volron]

Imagine a Spanish Civil War FSO/Scenario.  *drools*

[bozon]

The game already spans 6 years of WWII during which technology advanced in a crazed pace. Extending this span even further will create an unbridgeable performance gap - imagine for example a Sopwith pup fighting an F86 Sabre, it is simply pointless. Such a technological span will have to be broken down into periods, and HTC already done this experiment with the WWI, EW, MW and LW arenas. It does not work because the community is not big enough to support this.

Otherwise, I would have loved to play in other periods occasionally.

Such planes could be used in special events, but the you need a decent planes roster from the period, which means lots of HTC modeling resources. I think that it is better for HTC and for the players to focus on WWII.

[Scherf]

I started reading The Forgotten Soldier, didn't get through it. At the time I was reading more about the Eastern Front in general, when and where, Sajer's stuff seemed rather off, IIRC. Strangely perhaps, Anthony Beevor leans heavily in it in "Berlin".

[PJ_Godzilla]

I started reading The Forgotten Soldier, didn't get through it. At the time I was reading more about the Eastern Front in general, when and where, Sajer's stuff seemed rather off, IIRC. Strangely perhaps, Anthony Beevor leans heavily in it in "Berlin".

I can more easily see why you had difficulty with DeGrelle than with Sajer. THe latter I couldn't put down. As I stated before, though, there was some argument over his bona fides. I dismissed much of this after my review. However, Wiki carries a reasonable overview of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forgotten_Soldier

As for DeGrelle's status as a traitor in Belgium, postwar... I'm sure many regard him as one. Certainly all those who joined SS Wallonia probably did not, but, of course, many of them didn't survive the war. At my count, volunteers or conscripts from some 22 nations joined the fight against Bolshevism in the East. I'd say there was a definite movement afoot but, post war, other sensibilities prevailed in those same nations. Certainly European nationalism is not dead (indeed, I'd call it backlashing a bit right now, as recent events have shown), but I can easily see such a cataclysm as the war impacting public support, if not mental allegiance.   

[Rich46yo]

I use 1931 because thats when Japan actually invaded China. Many use 1937 cause thats when the first full scale battles began. I dont believe Japan ever formally declared war on China tho I believe China declared war on Japan.

Its an interesting question with no real right answer. 1937 is probably used most often even if I disagree.

Its kinda sad that my interest in EW aircraft happened at a time the EWA is so little used. When I have a Fri. off, which isnt often, there are some pretty cool early war scenarios going on.

[Zimme83]

WW2 officially runs from 1st september 1939 (invasion of Poland) to 2nd September 1945 (japanese surrender). there was wars before that but the Spanish civil war and the war between japan and china is not a world war. These conflicts had nothing to do with each other. I vote for using the official definition of WW2 otherwise it we be just a mess.