Please don't tell me...

[FLS]

By rolling over and/or going nose-low, you can see the pitch ladder down to the necessary angle.

Yes. After you dive you can see the angle. We agree on that.   

We seem to have different conclusions about it. 

[hitech]

Which the ladder lets you now judge with more precision.

If you were already that interested in this kind of precision, there are many more simple ways to do the same by simply putting a dot on your screen.


HiTech

[Mar]

If you were already that interested in this kind of precision, there are many more simple ways to do the same by simply putting a dot on your screen.


HiTech

They're talking about dive angle.

[hitech]

They're talking about dive angle.

So am i, simply make a dot that you need to put on the horizon for desired dive angle.

HiTech

[Mar]

So am i, simply make a dot that you need to put on the horizon for desired dive angle.

HiTech

Oh I see, sorry. 

Still, the pitch ladder makes it a lot easier to line up on the target.

[Wiley]

If you were already that interested in this kind of precision, there are many more simple ways to do the same by simply putting a dot on your screen.


HiTech

Ok, both the screen dot and the cockpit reference assume level flight, as well as known altitude yes?  At least level flight.

Suppose I'm in my P47D40 and wanting to do a pork/jabocide at a base.  I climb to 10k, I'm headed to the base.  Flight is level.  Speed is high.  I'm ready to dive in once I hit my mark on my screen/mark on the nose.  Best run possible.

A defender lucks out being in the right position to dive in on me and intercept my angle unless I maneuver on the way in.

Without the pitch ladder, assuming I defend successfully I now have to assess via what it looks like what has changed, what angle I'm at now, and what sight picture I need to use.

With the pitch ladder, I can be maneuvering all the way in and as long as I hit the same angle and go stick neutral for a few seconds on drop, I've got way more exact information in much less time than I would have had any other way.

So am i, simply make a dot that you need to put on the horizon for desired dive angle.

HiTech

Assuming level wings.  The ladder lets you judge it and only need to stop maneuvering at the last moment.

It gives you the same level of precision in less time, which also means you can come in lower to start your attack run and be just as accurate.

Wiley.

[FLS]

Wiley it's a nice theory. I don't think experience will support it.

[hitech]

With the pitch ladder, I can be maneuvering all the way in and as long as I hit the same angle and go stick neutral for a few seconds on drop, I've got way more exact information in much less time than I would have had any other way.
Wiley.

You may wish to check your physics on this, once you maneuver, you will have lengthened the line to target, and hence the initial angle will no longer work. So with either the pitch ladder or dot method, you will need to re intersect your glide slope using the same mythology.

HiTech

[bustr]

None of you have considered the other use for the pitch ladder in it's relationship to a K14 gunsight. Some enterprising newbie certainly will.

We are not used to the idea of incorporating something like the pitch ladder into our gunnery sight picture. A newbie won't carry that baggage into the game. So they will see the pitch ladder as a tool to be exploited in any way they can make sense of it. I found that the green "0" is not a bad hold over for the gray transition area between 1000 into 800yds for a lead on a bomber. It certainly gives the newbie a reference point to work from on snap shots even if they don't have a clue what the 100mph principle is. Some of the reflector plates and wind screen spacing's will get in the way of using the pitch ladder as a gunnery aid. Many won't.

[Mar]

Wiley it's a nice theory. I don't think experience will support it.

Experience already has, in modern fighter sims like Falcon 4. There is no denying the pitch ladder will make lining up on a dive bombing target at the perfect angle much, much easier.

The pitch ladder will stay the same relative to the horizon, all you need to do is keep the target at the bottom of your hud until it lines up with the pitch angle you want. You can't do that with a dot at the top of your screen.

[Wiley]

Wiley it's a nice theory. I don't think experience will support it.

Maybe it's because when I jabo I usually come in sloppy as opposed to a methodical, smooth same profile every time bomb approach like you seem to.  I just think it allows guys that come in sloppy or are forced to maneuver on the way down the tools to be as precise or moreso than the guys that have everything go right on their smooth, unmolested approach using whatever reference points they use.

Defending against a porker, if you can make him maneuver, most guys blow the drop.  With this, he's only going to need about a second to level his wings (easier because of the ladder), go stick neutral and drop once he knows he's in the right plane of attack, which he will be able to judge without taking his eyes off the gunsight and HUD.  Roll attitude, dive angle, and aim point all available without having to look anywhere else.

That's a moderately significant impact to gameplay, upping the chances for a jabo to get on target even when pressed into maneuvering.  No more need for a smooth, known altitude approach and makes angle easier to judge without having your wings level.

Will it make a complete numpty a precision jabo expert?  No.  But it will make it even harder to defend against a determined jabo.

You may wish to check your physics on this, once you maneuver, you will have lengthened the line to target, and hence the initial angle will no longer work. So with either the pitch ladder or dot method, you will need to re intersect your glide slope using the same mythology.

HiTech

What am I missing?  Doesn't the same angle of dive with level wings and stick neutral yield the same impact point for the bomb?  If the jabo is pulling G's, sure, but if he goes neutral for a (very?) short time before release at the same angle of dive, his impact reference point is going to be the same regardless of what's gone before, isn't it?

Wiley.

[bustr]

This might help, you can read the whole book online.

http://aviationshoppe.com/wwii-us-navy-glide-bombing-how-to-do-it-a-66.html

[hitech]

You said
" I can be maneuvering all the way in"

Maneuver I assume means changing directions.

En order to impact point x with a dive angle means that the horizontal distance to vertical distance  must maintain a constant ratio.

Once you maneuver your turns lengthen the horizontal distance  traveled over the ground, and hence with the same glide slope you will strike short.

HiTech

[Mar]

You said
" I can be maneuvering all the way in"

Maneuver I assume means changing directions.

En order to impact point x with a dive angle means that the horizontal distance to vertical distance  must maintain a constant ratio.

Once you maneuver your turns lengthen the horizontal distance  traveled over the ground, and hence with the same glide slope you will strike short.

HiTech

You mean because of slowing down, right?

[FLS]

Experience already has, in modern fighter sims like Falcon 4. There is no denying the pitch ladder will make lining up on a dive bombing target at the perfect angle much, much easier.

The pitch ladder will stay the same relative to the horizon, all you need to do is keep the target at the bottom of your hud until it lines up with the pitch angle you want. You can't do that with a dot at the top of your screen.

In a modern jet you use the bombsight not the pitch ladder. In any case I'm referring to the more relevant experience in Aces High.

Maybe it's because when I jabo I usually come in sloppy as opposed to a methodical, smooth same profile every time bomb approach like you seem to.  I just think it allows guys that come in sloppy or are forced to maneuver on the way down the tools to be as precise or moreso than the guys that have everything go right on their smooth, unmolested approach using whatever reference points they use...


...What am I missing?  Doesn't the same angle of dive with level wings and stick neutral yield the same impact point for the bomb?  If the jabo is pulling G's, sure, but if he goes neutral for a (very?) short time before release at the same angle of dive, his impact reference point is going to be the same regardless of what's gone before, isn't it?

Wiley.

What you are still doing is picking the location to start the dive for the bomb release. You aren't just setting the dive angle, you're also aiming at the target. You're making it harder by maneuvering but as Hitech points out you still have to intersect the glide path from your location to the target. You aren't picking it up by dive angle, you're looking at the target and maneuvering so it looks right. It looks right when you are on the proper glide path, which you recognize from experience.