Author Topic: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.  (Read 5486 times)

Offline morfiend

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Re: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2015, 11:34:42 AM »
Yes, I am asking re a SEA setup and so its a narrow focus question; A6M2 (specifically) vs Ki-43-II.


  Warloc,


  It's all about the guns!!! The 43 is likely the better airframe,especially when you consider you can deploy flaps at 250 mph but it's low ammo count and lack of explosive rounds just doesnt give it the punch to be really successful.

  If we had a more finite damage model maybe that would change but as it is I would pick the A6M2 for the cannons and extra ammo.


 Something that I cant understand though is why the earlier 43 has a much high flap deployment speed than the later Ki84?  If the 84 could drop a notch of flaps at 250 like the 43 can then it would likely need a small perk to control it's use!


  YMMV!



    :salute

Offline Karnak

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Re: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2015, 11:10:15 PM »
Something that I cant understand though is why the earlier 43 has a much high flap deployment speed than the later Ki84?  If the 84 could drop a notch of flaps at 250 like the 43 can then it would likely need a small perk to control it's use!
My best guess is that it could, probably even higher, but that the documentation did not survive.  My bet is that the 167mph flap setting is the first stage of the landing setting.

The Ki-84 was built to higher strength factors than any other Japanese aircraft.  I find the idea that they would have put combat flaps on it that could not be used above 167mph to be absurd.

The Japanese were even more thorough than the Germans were about destroying documents.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2015, 07:36:40 PM »
Ki-43 wins 7 days a week. It can beat the A6m2 in so many ways (As stated above). Ok, the A6 has 2 spudzookas with a few potatoes but its not that scary and it will not save the Zero execpt when in a HO.
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Offline Squire

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Re: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2015, 08:25:00 PM »
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the A6 has 2 spudzookas with a few potatoes

Honestly that's my assessment of it as well vs the Ki-43.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2015, 10:05:30 PM »
The 2 .50s on the Ki isnt that bad against a paper plane like the Zeke. Ok the Ki isnt exactly an A-10 either but when the 20:s are dry the Zeke has only 2 x 7.7mm left and has lost the advantage in firepower too.
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2015, 10:24:30 PM »
The 2 .50s on the Ki isnt that bad against a paper plane like the Zeke. Ok the Ki isnt exactly an A-10 either but when the 20:s are dry the Zeke has only 2 x 7.7mm left and has lost the advantage in firepower too.

I don't know. I've never seen a Zeke suffer 3 fuel leaks and an oil leak and not be on fire - until I did just that to one with a Ki-43.
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Offline Bino

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Re: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2015, 12:09:13 PM »
The 2 .50s on the Ki isnt that bad against a paper plane like the Zeke. Ok the Ki isnt exactly an A-10 either but when the 20:s are dry the Zeke has only 2 x 7.7mm left and has lost the advantage in firepower too.

The guns on the Mitsubishi A6M2 are almost identical to the guns on the Messerschmitt Bf-109E-4.

In real life, the Zero's Type 97 7.7mm machine gun was based on a licensed version of a Vickers design, and the Type 99 20mm cannon was based on the Oerlikon FF.


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Offline Crash Orange

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Re: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2015, 03:44:47 AM »
Against an A6M2 and against other EW planes are completely different questions. The KI may have the firepower to kill a Zeke but it just doesn't have the firepower to take on American planes unless they're dumb enough to get in a turn fight with it - and even then it's going to take a lot of lead. It was bad enough for the Zekes that way in the Pacific scenario last year and that was with 20mms. Against bombers the KI is going to be absolutely hopeless. And if you're talking about Special Events it generally will be going up against Allied planes, not A6Ms. The P-40s and F4Fs will just dive out of trouble and the KI's popguns will rarely do critical damage before they're out of range.

You also have to figure in performance at altitude given that engagement alts in most events tend to be much higher than typical MA encounters. However I know nothing about the KI-43's performance at 20k +, can anyone speak to that?

Offline WaffenVW

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Re: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2015, 09:03:47 AM »
In this order: The Ki is faster than the F4F at all alts. The P-40C is faster above 10k. P-40E is faster at all alts. Ki climbs much better at all alts.

Offline morfiend

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Re: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2015, 03:12:19 PM »
My best guess is that it could, probably even higher, but that the documentation did not survive.  My bet is that the 167mph flap setting is the first stage of the landing setting.

The Ki-84 was built to higher strength factors than any other Japanese aircraft.  I find the idea that they would have put combat flaps on it that could not be used above 167mph to be absurd.

The Japanese were even more thorough than the Germans were about destroying documents.


  I suspect the same!

     When the 43 was first released I was somewhat surprized to see the flaps come out at the speed they do. Then I wondered why the later 84 would have a much lower deployment speed.

 That said I can only imagine how effective the 84 would be with this higher deployment speed!!!


    :salute

Offline Squire

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Re: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2015, 07:02:54 PM »
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The KI may have the firepower to kill a Zeke but it just doesn't have the firepower to take on American planes unless they're dumb enough to get in a turn fight with it

Disagree. You do not need 4 x 20mm cannons to soot down or disable (pilot wound, oil, radiator, vert stab) a P-40, F4F, Hurricane, SBD, ect. The Ki-43 is supposed to get in close with its agility and deliver a blow at close range and it can do that. Just because you dont see a mushroom cloud after pulling the trigger doesn't mean you can't do damage.

Vs bombers sure...it lacks a punch especially against a 4 engined model.

...again that's just my own opinion.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2015, 07:38:53 PM »
Disagree. You do not need 4 x 20mm cannons to soot down or disable (pilot wound, oil, radiator, vert stab) a P-40, F4F, Hurricane, SBD, ect. The Ki-43 is supposed to get in close with its agility and deliver a blow at close range and it can do that. Just because you dont see a mushroom cloud after pulling the trigger doesn't mean you can't do damage.

Vs bombers sure...it lacks a punch especially against a 4 engined model.

...again that's just my own opinion.


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Offline Krusty

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Re: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2015, 02:00:58 PM »
My best guess is that it could, probably even higher, but that the documentation did not survive.  My bet is that the 167mph flap setting is the first stage of the landing setting.

The Ki-84 was built to higher strength factors than any other Japanese aircraft.  I find the idea that they would have put combat flaps on it that could not be used above 167mph to be absurd.

The Japanese were even more thorough than the Germans were about destroying documents.

That's not really true, though. Maybe on paper in the earliest stages it was designed to be stronger, but in actual implementation it was nearly a disaster. The best and most reliable and strongest versions were the FIRST off the production lines. As the war continued (and remember, this was already a late-war plane) the quality dropped sharply. Failing landing gear because the metal was so poor that the struts snapped, engines that were bombed out of existence and derated replacement engines that were so poor they often performed a fraction of how they should have, and most pilots had to wonder if they would even get to altitude with the rest of their wing when they scrambled for a sortie. Metal quality, slave-labor-conditions, constant bombing of the production facilities, all resulted in the mid-production-run Ki-84s being bad quality and the end-production ones being worse.

Keep in mind the Ki-100 was no better than the Ki-61 in terms of raw performance but it was far far better than the 1945-era Ki-84s rolling off the lines. It was actually faster, climbed better, and ultimately more reliable to get the pilot TO and FROM the combat than the Ki-84s available at the time.

In AH we have a version with almost no production faults -- an early model, if you will (one of the best). However, in reality the documentation may state the speeds it has because the very metal of the flap surface wasn't capable of sustaining faster speeds, or the lever-actions for the flap deployment or the tracks on which they slide may be so unreliable that putting them out any higher would risk major damage to the airframe.

Maybe on a pristine model, it might have higher speeds, maybe not. I don't think "lack of documentation" is the reason and I think you shouldn't assume the Ki-84 was a stronger or more reliable plane than others at the time. If it were, you'd never have seen Ki-43-IIIs ever get the green light, nor Ki-100s ever take to the skies. They were filling the role that the Ki-84s left wide open.

Offline Zimme83

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Re: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2015, 09:44:52 PM »
A lot of our planes are far better then they were irl. We have no production flaws modeled.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: So I have a question re the A6M2 and the Ki-43.
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2015, 10:05:53 PM »
I don't think that anybody who knows about WWII Japanese manufacturing would contest that all but the rarest late production Ki-84s were worse than the early production models. In AH we deal with as designed aircraft, not as built.

That said, the points of failure of the Ki-84 seemed to be the landing gear and engines.  I've not read anything suggesting the airframe was significantly below specs.
Petals floating by,
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