Winning In the Lufbery

[Kingpin]

Yes, I see the usefulness in that diagram!  It shows how the horizontal offset and subsequent turn radii affect the offset circles. I still think my particular case in the lufbery fights was both of us both pulling tighter and tighter circles into the offset position.  However, I do see where it can happen in initial merges as well.

In fact, in thinking about that illustration more, I see where this applies to many 1v1s I have had or seen in films, particularly at and after the second merge.  Assuming both planes do a smooth Immelmann, going for the high ground at the first merge, and neither gains a significant advantage, resulting in a second co-E merge: the diagram shows what can happen after this second merge.  If there is not enough E to do a true second Immelmann, instead both do an oblique climbing turn (chandelle) back into each other (just as you said).  And then we have essentially what is shown in the diagram, two offset circles (albeit climbing spirals).  The important point being, if I understand all this correctly, this is now a two circle fight -- so turn rate (v.s radius) is key!

This is what I usually see in this situation.  By doing a smooth climbing turn, you let the con feel as though he is gaining position so he will turn tighter.   He is now turning for radius, while I am maintaining rate.  So, I should win the energy fight, provided I can stall him out before he has an effective shot.  I usually do this by pointing my left wingtip at or just behind him (assuming left turns as illustrated) flying lag pursuit.  Often they can only get their nose around to about the 9 o'clock position, but don't have the E to either pull lead or keep the nose up for a shot.  At this third merge they usually fire just behind and/or below me and either stall or have lost in the vertical, so it just a matter of rolling in behind their 3/9 line.

That's just one application I see of that diagram.  Cool stuff when you see the illustrations and theory applied and know that it really works!

<S>

[FLS]

Just understand the one circle vs two circle fight is not about offset, it's really about flow. Did you turn in the same direction as the bandit on the merge or in the opposite direction? You can fight nose to nose with radius or nose to tail with turn rate using either overlapping or offset turn circles. It's less confusing if you just think the head on turn is a radius fight and the tail chase is a turn rate fight and forget how many circles it is.

The bandit pulling for angles is still nose to tail so it's still basically a turn rate fight. He is decreasing his radius as a consequence of increasing his rate temporarily. Radius and rate are both always factors but it's primarily a rate fight. If the bandit reverses direction it becomes a radius fight.

[Kingpin]

Just understand the one circle vs two circle fight is not about offset, it's really about flow. Did you turn in the same direction as the bandit on the merge or in the opposite direction? You can fight nose to nose with radius or nose to tail with turn rate using either overlapping or offset turn circles. It's less confusing if you just think the head on turn is a radius fight and the tail chase is a turn rate fight and forget how many circles it is.

Yes, I get this.  Circle flow and offset are two different things.  Thinking about all this was kind of the "ah ha!" moment for me while examining the geometry of the lufbery, with regard to understanding it as a "two circle fight"  The true meaning/importance of "one circle" and "two circle" flow seem to be to simplify the determination of whether radius or rate is the deciding factor.  It previously seemed counter-intuitive to call a lufbery a "two circle fight", but now it makes sense.

The bandit pulling for angles is still nose to tail so it's still basically a turn rate fight. He is decreasing his radius as a consequence of increasing his rate temporarily. Radius and rate are both always factors but it's primarily a rate fight. If the bandit reverses direction it becomes a radius fight.

Yes, in fact I was thinking "what if you have (mistakenly) entered a lufbery in a plane with a good radius performance vs. a plane with better rate performance?"  The answer would be to reverse your turn into a flat scissors instead, correct?  This can be hard to do without getting shot, as exiting a lufbery usually gives the other plane your six.  BUT, if you have (or can create) offset circles, there is a near merge point that presents a safe opportunity to reverse the turn back into one circle flow.  I see that as a place where these concepts (rate/radius, circle flow, and offset circles) come together in application.

This makes me want to try some practice where we reverse out of offset circles to see what happens and how best to do it...

[FLS]

Make time Friday for Rodent, he's the expert. 

Sik1 is our newest trainer, he also offered to help.   

If you still have questions let me know. 

[JOACH1M]

Im not  a trainer, but i know enough about circles

[Kingpin]

Im not  a trainer, but i know enough about circles

Faceoff circles don't count, Jo. 

I'd be happy to do some practice with you as well, assuming that was an offer.

<S>

[JOACH1M]

Faceoff circles don't count, Jo. 

I'd be happy to do some practice with you as well, assuming that was an offer.

<S>

haha just shoot me a PM Ingame when you want too bud.

[Badboy]

BUT, if you have (or can create) offset circles, there is a near merge point that presents a safe opportunity to reverse the turn back into one circle flow.

This makes me want to try some practice where we reverse out of offset circles to see what happens and how best to do it...

Hi Kingpin

I just back after a fairly lengthy hiatus and I'd just like to offer you some practice, and a few tips.

Firstly, one of the most important skills in a lufbery is knowing if you actually have offset circles or not. There are some visual cues, and recognizing them is vital because offset in the circles can either benefit you or hurt you depending on your position relative to your opponent.  The rule of thumb to use is, if you already have an angles advantage, offset will help a lot, if your opponent has the advantage offset will hurt you a lot. You can create offset with a yo-yo and the fact that it can either help you or hurt you makes it really important to know when to create circle offset and when not to. I've had people tell me "When you do it it works, when I do it I get killed" and that's just because they aren't recognizing the visual cues that trigger the appropriate BFM response.

It also helps if you see your opponent trying to create offset to know if they are doing it at the appropriate time, if they aren't you just let them because they may be helping you. If they are getting it right, then you have just been tipped off that the guy you are fighting knows exactly what he's doing, while you still have time to try and do something about it.

I'd be happy to meet with you in the training arena and I can do evenings between 9pm and midnight and weekend afternoons and evenings if the UK time zone is any good for you.

Hope that helps

Badboy

[Rodent57]

Kingpin,

I can say with absolute confidence, and learned humility, that if you can set up a session or two with Badboy to learn the mystery and the muscle  of rate & radius fights...you should drop everything to do it.

Simply put, he's the best I've encountered by a lot!

Rodent57

PS Yes, I will still gladly keep our appointment and work on the rest of the universe.

 

[Kingpin]

Kingpin,

I can say with absolute confidence, and learned humility, that if you can set up a session or two with Badboy to learn the mystery and the muscle  of rate & radius fights...you should drop everything to do it.

Simply put, he's the best I've encountered by a lot!

Rodent57

PS Yes, I will still gladly keep our appointment and work on the rest of the universe.

 

Yes, I felt exactly the same when I saw his reply.  I have PM'd him about setting up a time.  I still look forward to working with you Friday as well.

I did a session with SIK1 and filmed our circles, which was very informative, perhaps for the both of us!  (I may post a couple interesting screen shots from the films.)  What's great about using the AH film viewer, is turning on Trails and then panning the fixed external view so you are looking down on the circles -- this way you can accurately see the actual turn circles with the trails.  This clearly showed how offset circles can make fights appear to have big changes in angular advantage when in reality the fight is still quite neutral.  However, when the circles were closer to overlap, it became easier to determine more accurately who was gaining or losing around the circle.  Another interesting point was that rarely did the circles overlap exactly.  Even when we were maintaining a quite neutral position (180-degrees across the circle from each-other) and maintaining roughly the same speed, we never truly scribed the same circle -- there was still a small amount of offset either from the initial entry into the fight or perhaps slight variances in our "steadiness" in holding the lufbery.

I am finding the exploration of this geometry and area of ACM to be very interesting, with aspects that were counter-intuitive at first that now make considerably more sense to me.

Thanks again for all the assistance and feedback I've gotten from this thread!

<S>

[Rodent57]

I love it when 'students' understand the value of film review!  Absolutely agree with using trails to see relative flight paths (don't forget to use the horizontal view to see relative vertices maneuvers, and the recorded views (from internal view) to help reinforce what you perceived vs what happened). 

Reference your study of geometry:
Most of the geometry can be visualized using a couple of plastic lids with little tiny airplanes drawn on them.  Allows you to rotate each at varying degrees per second and see the effect (s) through time. Can then offset the centers of the circles to different points and see those effects.   From there, you start blending in the vertical components (high and low yo-yos) that Badboy discusses above to see how that affects things.

It is fun to understand the 1-on-1.

PS:  The Lufberry defense was considered obsolete before the last year of WW I ... but understanding it is fundamental to all advanced maneuvering.
 

[FLS]

Here's an improved graphic. It shows better the options at the likely decision point after the initial turn when you assess the bandit. If it's the common climbing lead turn you may end up on the larger circle then offset your flight paths as you vary your pulls and lift vectors.