Winning In the Lufbery

[Kingpin]

I’d like to find a trainer or someone proficient in fighting in the lufbery to assist me with a few questions I have about these types of fights.  I have an understanding of the basics, which is that the best sustained turn rate is the key.  However, I have some specific questions resulting from some recent 1v1s I’ve done.  If anyone might be able to assist me with this in the Training Arena, please post here or PM me.  Thanks!

Background on my questions:

I’ve recently returned to Aces High after many months away and have been trying to take more time to practice 1v1 “dueling” – something I’ve never really practiced extensively at all.  In an effort to get the most fun and learning out of these, I tend to fly to protract the fight (not necessarily going for the 2 or 3 merge advantage and early kills on crossing high-deflection-angle shots) and try to get into a rolling scissors, flat-scissors and/or lufbery fight until I gain a clearly “behind the 3/9 line” advantage for a shot.  Many of these fights, especially when flying against the same aircraft, result in protracted lufbery circle fights.  I’ve won a majority of them, but what concerns me are two things:

1) I’m not 100% sure WHY/HOW I am eventually winning these lufbery fights.  I have some ideas, but am not certain to the point where I could explain it to someone else.  So, I was hoping to examine the topic more closely with someone.

2) There have been some lufbery fights that seem to result in a "strange geometry" that I can't explain.  These start with a typical lufbery tail chase, resulting in a close pass (nearly canopy to canopy) again followed by a prolonged tail chase at a greater distance, and often have several repetitions of this until I may eventually get around on the opponent.  Again, I’m not 100% certain I understand the geometry on this, but it seems to suggest that one or both of us is alternately tightening and relaxing their turn which is altering/tightening the turn circle.  I tend to focus more on the relative position of the enemy (and the proximity of the ground) and not so much on my airspeed, so this probably plays a part in this geometry that I am not 100% able to explain.  I am hoping to explore and understand this better as well.

I hope this helps to clarify what I want to work on and understand more fully.

<S>

[SIK1]

Hey Ryno,
Glad to hear that you are doing some flying again.
I'm available to work on what ever you would like in the TA. Let me know what's a good time for you as my schedule is pretty flexible right now.

 
Sik

[FLS]

1. If you turn in similar low E co-E aircraft you may stalemate but usually one of you will trade speed for angles and win or lose as a result.  Staying in lag and building speed and altitude can give up angles to the bandit and encourage them to pull hard for a shot they hopefully can't make. This lets you drag them around nose up with your energy advantage until they stall.

Basically you slowly increase energy( speed and/or altitude), while baiting the bandit to turn harder and lose energy.


2. Sounds like offset turn circles. You should be able to see what it is with film.

[Kingpin]

1. If you turn in similar low E co-E aircraft you may stalemate but usually one of you will trade speed for angles and win or lose as a result.  Staying in lag and building speed and altitude can give up angles to the bandit and encourage them to pull hard for a shot they hopefully can't make. This lets you drag them around nose up with your energy advantage until they stall.

Basically you slowly increase energy( speed and/or altitude), while baiting the bandit to turn harder and lose energy.


2. Sounds like offset turn circles. You should be able to see what it is with film.

Unfortunately when I went to check later for the film of that particular fight, I couldn't find it.  I think I may have failed to save it.

But, in thinking further about it, I believe it is a case of the speed slowing and pulling tighter and tighter circles, resulting in offset circles, as you said.

Here is a diagram I made of what I think was happening.  Please correct me if I am wrong.  I think as we bled E in the initial luftbery at higher speed, we each started turning tighter, offsetting our turn circles.

[Kingpin]

So, if the above answers the question of the geometry of the fight I was seeing, the question still remains, how does one "win" from this position, where both planes are now flying in offset circles in their tightest turn radius without stalling -- that would also seem to be a stalemated position unless someone makes a mistake and stalls, no?

Or is it possible for one to fly a slightly smoother/faster circle and ultimately gain position behind the other?  I have a suspicion that is what happened.

This is the kind of thing I would like to experiment with in the TA: getting into something like the offset circles and then have one relax the turn slightly, while the other continues to pull min turn radius, to see how it affects the position.  Actually flying these positions, seeing and doing them from the cockpit, are what I am looking for, in order to develop a better "feel" for it while it is occurring in a fight.

Yes, SIK, I will be happy to work with you on this.  Good to see you again too!

<S>

[FLS]

You don't start on opposites sides of the same circle unless it's an ACM illustration.   


The turn circles start offset and are likely more fishhook, i.e. changing radius, than pure circles.  You'll see it in film with trails. If you both fly lag pursuit you may align flight paths but they usually offset a little.

If you fly lag pursuit with your best sustained turn while the bandit pulls hard for angles in a level turn you will eventually come around on his 6.

Since a flat turn is never your first choice for ACM your merge is generally going to be a vertical lead turn. I think of a lufbery as the result of a stalemate where you are both down to sustained turn speeds with no advantage and without the speed to go vertical. You have an advantage in the lufbery if the bandit doesn't know his minimum speed and G for his best sustained turn. Once you have an E advantage you can use it either for altitude or turn rate. You can build the advantage by flying your best sustained turn while the bandit turns too hard and gets too slow. You can build E through climbing while the bandit gains angles on you. You can build E from reducing your turn rate and building speed while the bandit gains angles on you. Watch the bandit and look at his position relative to you. If he's losing angles he's gaining speed. If he's gaining angles he's slowing down. If he's maintaining his position he's likely watching you to see what you're trying to do.

[DmonSlyr]

So, if the above answers the question of the geometry of the fight I was seeing, the question still remains, how does one "win" from this position, where both planes are now flying in offset circles in their tightest turn radius without stalling -- that would also seem to be a stalemated position unless someone makes a mistake and stalls, no?

Or is it possible for one to fly a slightly smoother/faster circle and ultimately gain position behind the other?  I have a suspicion that is what happened.

This is the kind of thing I would like to experiment with in the TA: getting into something like the offset circles and then have one relax the turn slightly, while the other continues to pull min turn radius, to see how it affects the position.  Actually flying these positions, seeing and doing them from the cockpit, are what I am looking for, in order to develop a better "feel" for it while it is occurring in a fight.

Yes, SIK, I will be happy to work with you on this.  Good to see you again too!

<S>

If you cannot turn inside them. Adjust your turn radius wider and gain more E, next, tuck down and turn inside the circle. Go nose down and then attempt a loop over the top of their horiznal turn. Sometimes with E you can pull a loop over the top and can get a crossing shot. The 109s are very good at this, but you do need to control your plane smoothly in order to maintain the E.

[Kingpin]

You don't start on opposites sides of the same circle unless it's an ACM illustration.   


The turn circles start offset and are likely more fishhook, i.e. changing radius, than pure circles.  You'll see it in film with trails. If you both fly lag pursuit you may align flight paths but they usually offset a little.

If you fly lag pursuit with your best sustained turn while the bandit pulls hard for angles in a level turn you will eventually come around on his 6.

Since a flat turn is never your first choice for ACM your merge is generally going to be a vertical lead turn. I think of a lufbery as the result of a stalemate where you are both down to sustained turn speeds with no advantage and without the speed to go vertical. You have an advantage in the lufbery if the bandit doesn't know his minimum speed and G for his best sustained turn. Once you have an E advantage you can use it either for altitude or turn rate. You can build the advantage by flying your best sustained turn while the bandit turns too hard and gets too slow. You can build E through climbing while the bandit gains angles on you. You can build E from reducing your turn rate and building speed while the bandit gains angles on you. Watch the bandit and look at his position relative to you. If he's losing angles he's gaining speed. If he's gaining angles he's slowing down. If he's maintaining his position he's likely watching you to see what you're trying to do.

Yes, I get the "fish-hook" tightening circles would be a more accurate drawing.  Mine was intended as a rudimentary sketch to illustrate what I thought was happening (a single lufbery circle) that transitioned into two highly offset circles during the fight.  Based on what you said though, I suppose it might be important to note that once we were passing canopy to canopy within a couple hundred yards of each other, that would be an indication that we had reached a very neutral position in the fight, correct?

I guess the theoretical lesson in this is that while we started flying a lufbery in what seemed like the "same circle", we became more and more distinctly offset as we each pulled to improve our angle, instead of minding our turn rate.  I think when I was seeing him gain an angle by pulling harder, my instinct was to do the same until we reached that offset circle position.  The way I must have ultimately won the fight (as I did eventually come around on his six) was to relax my pull slightly and fly more lag pursuit, improving my turn rate, while he continued to hold a tighter, slower circle.  I suppose that is the lesson in all this.

Despite understanding the concepts, I still think I want to work on it in the TA so I can visually see what is working and where, and most importantly, to learn to trust flying the better sustained turn rate , instead of pulling for the turn radius.

<S>

p.s. For DmonSlyr's benefit, I should mention that this occurred right on the deck, with very real danger of dragging a wingtip on the ground (probably because we had both already sliced as much as possible to gain turn rate in the initial tail chase), so there was no room to dip down for more speed in order to convert that E vertically.

[FLS]

I think you're correct. The pulls to improve position offset the circles which changed radius with the speed changes and any flap use.
The trick being to gain speed for turn rate if you're slow without giving up enough angles to get shot and knowing the speed and G you need to maintain.

What happens in the turn when you exceed the critical AOA is more drag without more lift. Since we don't have an AOA gauge, or a turn rate gauge, or a turn radius gauge, we have to use our speed and g gauges to assess our turns.

[Zimme83]

Dont forget to use top rudder when turning really slow, helps a lot.

[DmonSlyr]

Sometimes you can gain a little bit of alt while you make the circle bigger to gain alt/E. This way you can do a nose down turn back into your opponent. This is of course if your plane simply cannot turn inside the other plane. Think of a huluhoop wobbling on the ground. One side goes up the other side goes down. If you go up, you can attempt a sharp nose down turn, they might get a shot solution on you, but if they miss ( and its a hard shot) you can have the energy to rope over them as they go around. It is tough, but this is what you have to do against planes you cannot circle inside of.

[FLS]

The way I must have ultimately won the fight (as I did eventually come around on his six) was to relax my pull slightly and fly more lag pursuit, improving my turn rate, while he continued to hold a tighter, slower circle.  I suppose that is the lesson in all this.

Yes that's the lesson.     When the bandit pulls to the stall and ignores his minimum speed he loses turn rate. 

As a general rule if you aren't sure of your best sustained turn speed and g just use the slowest speed that lets you pull 3g. Make that your minimum maneuvering speed. If you're going slower you should be going vertical.

[Kingpin]

Yes that's the lesson.     When the bandit pulls to the stall and ignores his minimum speed he loses turn rate. 

As a general rule if you aren't sure of your best sustained turn speed and g just use the slowest speed that lets you pull 3g. Make that your minimum maneuvering speed. If you're going slower you should be going vertical.

The tricky part in all of this, at least for me, was to not "overreact" to the apparent loss of position (caused by the opponent's tighter turn) by likewise pulling into a tighter circle. It takes a little "trust" in the concept of maintaining the better sustained turn speed and some patience to let the turn rate advantage play out into a positional advantage.  It strikes me that this is a good example where "flying the theory" trumps flying by visual instinct alone.  That is what intrigues me so much about the subject.

I've subsequently done some further reading on this and found (again) Badz/Badboy's old bootstrap calculator along with a somewhat more recent thread that Moot posted on the subject, including a list of turn radii.  In that thread there is a discussion of best sustained turn speed/rates and how to determine them.  I may have to delve into that some.  In that thread, you mention the 2.5-3g range as typically being optimal, so I will be conscious of that in my practice, testing and application of this.

Thanks again for the information and helping me "riddle this out" in my mind.  Now just to practice it in some of my favorite aircraft.  I'll let you know if I stumble upon any other questions in my practice of sustained turn fights.

<S>

[Rodent57]

Kingpin,
Welcome back!

What you are looking to understand is now called a Rate/Radius fight.  It was developed 'academically' in western aviation schools in the late 1980s-early 1990s--though it is clear from watching film and studying historic fights that some fighter pilots had figured it out as early as WWII.  With the advent of near (or greater than) 1-to-1 thrust to weight ratio air machines, the high art of BFM gave way to GFM, but the ways of the art have not been lost.

As I read through your writings, it looks to me like you've gotten the basics of the flat plain geometry figured out.  Making sure you understand "God's G", Lift Vector control, what "E" really is, and of course Corner Velocity... and how they apply to this problem is the next step.

I'm impressed that you got into BadBoy's Bootstrap Calculator!  (It intimidates most rational folks  )   

I will have Friday available to spend some time in a 1-on-1 session Friday if you have time available then.

Please PM with your availability if interested.

-Rodent57

[FLS]

Here's an alternate illustration.

To start on opposite sides of a big circle you'd have to offset the merge with the  diameter of the circle for turning room.

The usual merge is closer and turns early. The turn circles start offset but you can initially appear to be on opposite sides of a bigger circle.

Mutual climbing lead turns would reduce the offset.