Buff Defensive Lethality

[SpinMan]

An old rant but none the less, ive noticed HT is closely monitoring the forums, very pleased to see, thank you!  So i feel that this post will actually be heard by those that can affect change if they so choose.

     Bomber defensive lethality, we all have our opinions on this.  I am one of many people that this sim and the sims before it thrive as well as they do....the enthusiast!  There are many who see it as a video game, I for one do it for the close reality and the attempt to feel 1/1000th of what it was like in war time to be in a ww2 aircraft pitting your skills to stay alive and defend the world as we cherish it.  The graffix are fantastic, best of any with the same playability.  With that being said I would respectfully ask is there anything that can be done with the buff defence gun lethality.  Now lets assume here that im not a dead six straight n level shooter.  That should ward off 90% of the your doing it wrongers!  The reason I ask is because we were in the throws of attempting a base take, a great fun fight, lots of excellent sticks defending furiously and then it starts.  Wave after wave of 17's begin to up for close base defence!  Now if the aircraft was capable of such feats downing multiple fighters each due to some fine gunnery notwithstanding, then there would never have been a need for the invention of fighter aircraft to beginwith.  My gripe is one guy being able to fly the bombers in formations of three and manning every gun!  My suggestion is if you want that type of lethality from bomber guns is have players join in gunnery positions!  If you dont want to be vulnerable and easy pickings fly from a further base and grab bomber alt with defensive fighter cover or just grab higher.  Why do we pander to this videogamey style of exploit?  One guy manning one gun controlling three tail gunner positions im ok with but having every turret that can focus on your fighter being controlled by one guy is not the realism I look for!  Certainly using bombers as close base defence isnt a tactic im aware of in the real war time that existed.  Could we address this issue High Tec?  At least water it down a bit, all i see is selling out on the "best ww2 simulator" statemeant and going for "really good" until people who find it tough to learn to fly something else for the task at hand. 

Flame on😳

Salute fellow enthusiasts!

Spin

[FLS]

I thought the B-17 was conceived as a flying gunship that could also bomb ships? Designed for defense then used offensively in Europe?

The bomber gun modeling is not an exploit. You can't expect every bomber pilot to find enough gunners to fill a formation. It's a game design choice, not realism vs unreal. Flying unmanned bombers isn't realism.

The other issue is gunnery. It's good you're avoiding the "dead" 6 but it may be possible to improve your attacks. I also wonder if you find the guns too effective when you fly bombers, that would be a stronger argument.   

[Wiley]

I think the guns being linked is a reasonable compromise.  It doesn't force bomber pilots to have to find gunners before they can launch, and it gives them a reasonable chance of survival.  The only defense they have is their guns, particularly at low altitude.

Under 25k, I feel bombers vs a single fighter have about the same chance of survival.  If there's a skill disparity, it usually goes to the pilot.

Wiley.

[SpinMan]

The "base is under attack". Lets scamble the bombers was a war cry heard by no man ever:).  How about making the gunnery positions die easier when you strafe em!  Many a time you dont take down a buff first pass.   

[waystin2]

Hey Spin cut Noturd some slack.  He was protecting his score. 

[Wiley]

The "base is under attack". Lets scamble the bombers was a war cry heard by no man ever:).  How about making the gunnery positions die easier when you strafe em!  Many a time you dont take down a buff first pass.   

If you're not taking down a bomber more or less every pass if they're on the deck, if you're flying anything with 6x50 or more, or cannons, respectfully your approach could be improved.

EDIT: Ugh. That came across a bit more "Git gud" than I meant it.  What I mean is, I don't think whittling a bomber down through multiple passes should be what they balance the gunnery towards.  If they do it that way, the bombers are essentially defenseless against someone who's decent at attacking bombers.  As it stands now, a bomber with good gunnery has a fair chance against a single opponent.  Against multiple opponents, the bomber should be meat because he can only attack one target at a time.

Wiley.

[715]

Is it fair that I get a fragile plane with two guns to go against the bomber pilot who get three lives, three planes that absorb much damage, and 36 point-and-shoot guns?

Whenever this topic comes up there are multiple posts of "you're doing it wrong, I have no trouble".  I find that funny as the majority of people I watch attack bombers go down in flames and the bombers keep plodding along.  I guess the majority of AH'ers are "doing it wrong".

[hgtonyvi]

I really do find that these bombers are a bit over modeled. B26 and the b25 guns are way over modeled I think. Sometimes I will shoot a b25 and he is spinning away going down then I break away and I'm still being able to get shot when I'm not even in the angle of his guns. Kinda wierd I think. Just saying......

[Wiley]

I guess the majority of AH'ers are "doing it wrong".

Honestly, yes.  I see about 2/3 or 3/4 of the people who attack bombers attack from behind the 8/4 lines with relatively little closing speed.  Against any bomber pilot with a clue that should be a death sentence, and it usually is.

Wiley.

[715]

Honestly, yes.  I see about 2/3 or 3/4 of the people who attack bombers attack from behind the 8/4 lines with relatively little closing speed.  Against any bomber pilot with a clue that should be a death sentence, and it usually is.

Wiley.

Perhaps because at alt it is hard to have much closing speed at all unless you're in the "proper" fighter and therefore all attacks devolve into 8 to 4.  I've encounter bombers are altitudes so high I could not even make a pass, let alone a successful one (granted I'm using the "wrong" plane, a Spit IX).

[Mongoose]

 I am one of those that often gets shot down when I'm attacking bombers. And I can tell you it's definitely my own fault.

[Wiley]

Perhaps because at alt it is hard to have much closing speed at all unless you're in the "proper" fighter and therefore all attacks devolve into 8 to 4.  I've encounter bombers are altitudes so high I could not even make a pass, let alone a successful one (granted I'm using the "wrong" plane, a Spit IX).

Above 20-25k is a completely different conversation, and one I don't feel I'm qualified to say what's realistic and isn't.  Bombers flown properly above 25k have a ton of advantage even against the "right plane".  Whether that's right or wrong, I can't say but I do know it's frustrating.

For the situation the OP was talking about, I think your Spit IX should be knocking down one bomber per pass pretty consistently if you're starting from alt/with E.  If you're not, you shouldn't be expecting to dominate him because you're not in your optimum situation, which means he should have more of a chance.

Wiley.

[pembquist]

If you weaken the bombers you will disturb the delicate balance that exists between frustration and glee. No one except the odd masochist or uber marksman would fly bombers if you were to nerf their guns. Your frustration is balanced by the gunships glee. If you've ever flown 2 hours to get to the strats to be done in by a me163 in two passes you will understand the flip side.

As for who has the advantage between bombers and fighters, fighters always do. They are the ones initiating the attack, they can leave at any time, they dictate the fight.

[Volron]

So....is this a complaint about people upping AC to defend the base as well???   With the threads about the manned guns...



As for OP; OP doesn't seem to fly bombers very often or if he does, it just "short hops".  Do a full tour in 17's/24's/29's, flying nothing but those and hitting strats that are deep in enemy territory.  Restrict yourself to 20-25k as well.


Wonder what excuse(s) you are going to come up with not to do this.

[caldera]

If you're not taking down a bomber more or less every pass if they're on the deck, if you're flying anything with 6x50 or more, or cannons, respectfully your approach could be improved.

Bombers on the deck are very dangerous to attack, because there is a good chance of augering if you have a good amount of closing speed.   Taking away the vertical attack greatly increases the chance the attacker will end up out of energy and behind the bomber.