Landing a 262

[Mongoose]

  To go along with Earl's thread about landing.

   The few times I have played around with a 262, I found it nearly impossible to get slow enough to land properly.  I had to shut down the engines to get down to the speed I wanted.  Is this normal for a 262? or is there a better way to land?

  I'm not talking about landing in general, but specifics of landing the 262.

[pembquist]

It would be nice if along with the performance data there were a few more speeds published, say stall speed, gear, flap, approach, best climb. As it is if you want to know that information you have to spend time as virtual test pilot which while interesting for some seems more like the aircraft manufacturer's job to others.

[FLS]

The key to landing is controlling your rate of descent with throttle while flying at your desired speed. This is harder in the 262 because of the slower thrust response. When you hear the stall horn you have enough drag from lift to slow down and you adjust power to set your descent rate.

Practice by flying level at landing speed with gear and flaps out and changing your rate of climb/descent with the throttle.

[Puma44]

  To go along with Earl's thread about landing.

   The few times I have played around with a 262, I found it nearly impossible to get slow enough to land properly.  I had to shut down the engines to get down to the speed I wanted.  Is this normal for a 262? or is there a better way to land?

  I'm not talking about landing in general, but specifics of landing the 262.

With the 262's clean design and lack of props (i.e., drag devices), it will take a longer distance from the runway to slow and configure for landing.  If you happen to be setting up at the same general distance as done with a propeller driven plane, that may be contributing to your frustration.  It certainly doesn't require shutting down an engine(s) to land. 

[save]

1rst flaps come down at about 340mph.
The trick is to do a long approach, and land after flaps are fully deployed, set it down at 200 mph, use rudder to slow it down faster in flight.

[Zimme83]

For both the 262 and 234 i recommend that the landing starts on the downwind, enter downwind leg at about 1000ft agl and do the landing check list before turning final (full flaps, gear down) so that  you use the engines to maintaining the speed at around 150 during approach. It is a lot easier to control the final if the engines are used instead of trying to bleed speed off. It also helps in the event of a go around.

[BaldEagl]

Cross control.  Works in every plane.

[colmbo]

Do what fighter pilots do, use a tight 360 overhead pattern pulling hard at the break to bleed speed. Once you get the first notch of flaps out it will slow fairly quickly.

150 on final is a lot of padding, 110 works fine and you won't float near as far in the flare.

[captain1ma]

cut throttle back way before you need to, she don't want to slow down. I find cross controlling works well with slowing the plane down. use lots of rudder and just wobble back and forth til you can start dropping flaps. that should be around 250. also at 250 you can drop your gear, use that to slow down. keep working the rudder and keep dropping flaps. you should hit the end of the runway about 120-150. by then you should have full flaps out. that should help, then just stand on the brakes.

if you're coming in too hot, I tend to fly by the base, with flaps down. pull hard and circle around, and then try to come in again. be careful with speed, if you get to slow, you cant spool up fast enough to save yourself, trust me.

if you'd like to see how its done, feel free to contact me and ill show you in the ava or training arena.

[DaveBB]

Years and years ago, I used to fly with the DWHBG.  On one mission, we found ourselves in Me262s without a base to land at, except a carrier.  Talk about a fun landing experience.  Full flaps, gear down, and speed about 140mph.  That is the right combination for getting aboard the CV.  However, in that configuration, you will be nose high.  So you have to scoot all the way forward, and to the right and use the carriers tower as a reference point to land.  As soon as you get over the deck, shut off the engines, and waggle your rudder to slow down while apply brakes.  In this particular scenario, I got behind the power curve.  My speed dropped to 120mph, and even though I jammed the throttles forward, the long engine spool up time caused me to have a ramp strike.  Plane broke in half and exploded.  I think 3 of the 6 Me262s made it on board.

[earl1937]

Do what fighter pilots do, use a tight 360 overhead pattern pulling hard at the break to bleed speed. Once you get the first notch of flaps out it will slow fairly quickly.

150 on final is a lot of padding, 110 works fine and you won't float near as far in the flare.

I concur with Colombo and I will describe how I do it!  I use 1500 feet above ground level as my "break" altitude, for a number of reasons. As I approach the field, I like to be back to around 70% power, maintaining around 350MPH. Just as I get to the "mid" point of the runway, I close the throttles completely and bank left in a 90 degree bank! This is where it gets tricky, only pull back on the elevators until you "black" out to the point that you are looking down a "tunnel" and no more, you don't want to black completely out as you may crash before waking up. As the speed begins to "bleed" off, due to closed throttles and holding your altitude to 1500 feet, apply first two positions of flaps and leveling out on the opposite heading of the runway. At this point, you will be down to 250 or less and can deploy the landing gear! Now you have to judge when to turn "base" leg, or a 90 degree point to the runway and you should begin a descent as now you will be approaching the point at which you need to turn inbound to the runway or on final approach! All this time, you will notice that your speed has been decreasing and as you turn to final approach leg, you will be down to somewhere around 175 or 180. Just remember this is a "jet" aircraft and the control surfaces are not as large as most prop driven aircraft, so that will require you to make larger control stick movements to get the result that you want.
As you are now on "final" approach, you may have to re-apply some throttle, because now you want to extend your flaps fully, but keeping your "rate" of decent to around 500 feet per minute. As you get closer and closer to the end of runway, you want to be down to 110MPH as you cross the end of the runway, about 50 feet high. As you cross the end of the runway, close your throttles completely and as the aircraft "settles" down towards the runway, begin a slight increase in the amount of "back" pressure on the elevator and as you do this, you may lose sight of the runway, because of the long nose of the 262, so you must begin to use the side view, referencing the side of the runway. When you touch down, continue to hold back pressure on the elevator, as that will help slow the aircraft down and you can apply braking action while in this attitude.
You will notice a couple of things about being in this "final" attitude! #1, if you should have to "abort" the landing, the aircraft will already be in the proper attitude and to "abort" the landing and go around again, just add full throttles, raise the gear and as you speed approaches 175 or so, begin to "milk" the flaps up to the 50% setting and adjust your attitude with the elevator to establish your climb attitude back to 1500 feet. #2, just remember, these were very early jet engines and they have a "lot" of "lag" before they spool up to provide thrust!
Just remember, as the pilot, you have to stay "ahead" of the aircraft by planning and using your head for something besides a hat rack!
That is why I recommend going to 11,500 feet above ground level and practice doing what I have just described! One or two times doing this and you won't have anymore problems landing a 262!
Good flying guys!

[Kazaa]

Max rudder and crab on approach.

/thread.

[MiloMorai]

If you are at 110 mph you are in a stall condition Earl.

From the Me262 Pilot Notes: The airplane stalls at 180 to 202 km/hr (112 to 125 mph). 

[colmbo]

If you are at 110 mph you are in a stall condition Earl.

The stall horn will be bleating but you are still very much in control.  Even at 15000 pounds (just under full fuel) you can get down to 110 before the buffet starts.  Offline for fun I've flown final in buffet but not something I'd do with perks at risk. <G>  She is a bit touchy that slow and it takes a good shot of power to cushion the landing.

120-125 is a comfortable approach speed for all weights, the stall horn should be sounding -- maybe in and out of horn as you play the edge.  Use power to adjust glideslope as FLS posted, pitch to control airspeed.

My patterns are flown a little different than ETs.  I fly initial (the leg going same direction as your landing) on the deck, speed across the approach end 450-500 IAS, power at idle.  Auto level as I fly down the runway then at the departure end a hard break to tunnel vision keeping the nose just above the horizon so I climb a bit to the downwind, I get the flaps out ASAP, as soon as I start the break I start hitting the flap button.  You'll roll out on downwind at around 300IAS, keep putting flap and gear out ASAP.  Continue downwind until speed 200 or less, gear down and full flaps then start your turn to final (no base leg, you should be tight to runway) and if needed put in some top rudder to slip through the turn to bleed speed/altitude as needed.  Roll out on final at around 130IAS, continue to slow until stall horn sounds then add power to control glideslope.  Fly that attitude until touchdown or flare and ease her on touching down at 86-90 IAS.  There will be enough runway left after you stop to depart if you choose to do so.


AHF file showing overhead pattern, break and landing then takeoff of remaining runway.  Aircraft weight just under 15000 pounds

[earl1937]

If you are at 110 mph you are in a stall condition Earl.

From the Me262 Pilot Notes: The airplane stalls at 180 to 202 km/hr (112 to 125 mph).

That is what the book says, but as Colombo has pointed out and as I have experienced, it handles just fine at 110kts, especially since you are down around 20 to 25% fuel on board. You must remember, at 110kts, you are descending for landing and you might hear the stall warner from time to time, but if you are good enough to fly the 262, that shouldn't bother you!
I usually  try to stay about 120 to 125 on long final, bleeding off the excess speed as I approach the end of the runway!
But, caution: if you are down to one engine, you need to stay around 150MPH IAS, until committed to landing, then it doesn't matter if one engine is shut down. The only time it does matter is if you have to abort a landing for some reason, then you better be 150 or more or it will "roll" over on its back and crash!
the best time to know proper procedures and the worst time to practice them, is during a real emergency, so practice with the 262 in all realms of flight and learn what it will do!