Landing a 262

[FLS]

If you are at 110 mph you are in a stall condition Earl.

From the Me262 Pilot Notes: The airplane stalls at 180 to 202 km/hr (112 to 125 mph).

The level stall speeds in the manual assume normal takeoff weight not landing weight. Posted stall speeds are for level flight. When you descend nose up with power it is a controlled stall condition if you define the stall as the inability to maintain level flight.  It's the departure from controlled flight you need to worry about.

[WaffenVW]

FLS, "inability to maintain level flight" and "departure from controlled flight" are at the same speed (or more correctly at the same angle of attack).

[FLS]

FLS, "inability to maintain level flight" and "departure from controlled flight" are at the same speed (or more correctly at the same angle of attack).

I think you can safely separate them in a controlled descent.

[earl1937]

I think you can safely separate them in a controlled descent.

A lot of good comments and I would like to add this: Once I establish my 2.5 degree glide angle, I press shift plus X and if I need to, I can add a little power to slow the descent or if I have to go around for another approach, I just add full power, wiggle the "stick" slightly to come out of auto descent, raise the gear, milk the flaps up to 50% and start preparing my traffic pattern for landing again.
I hadn't mentioned the "shift + X thing, as a lot of the people in here might not understand how to use that feature of the game! You can, and I have done it several times, once you get everything stabilized, continue right down to the runway and chop throttles and "wa, la, you have landed.
While doing that is not like a "flight director" auto function which will make any corrections needed to maintain that 2.5 degree glideslope. but its kinda neat to do that and see it come out correctly.
And before anyone brings it up, there is no correct way to establish the 2.5 degree glide angle, but eye ball engineering beats plain old guess work!

[Oldman731]

When you descend nose up with power it is a controlled stall condition if you define the stall as the inability to maintain level flight. 

I don't think that's anyone's definition of a stall.

- oldman

[FLS]

I don't think that's anyone's definition of a stall.

- oldman

The speed at which you can no longer maintain level flight is your stall speed. You disagree with that?

The precise definition of a stall is a debatable point. There is also the fact that wings will stall unevenly. For example if you have flaps down that portion of the wing will stall while your ailerons are not stalled. So are you then stalled or not stalled? Part of your wing exceeds the stall angle of attack and you're flying with full control while descending. What do you call that? If you drop a wing I call that a departure from controlled flight. If you control your descent I call it a good landing.

[WaffenVW]

The speed at which you can no longer maintain level flight is your stall speed. You disagree with that?

No, but not in the way you think. Just because you're not able to maintain altitude does not mean you're in a stall. Planes descending normally with a nose high attitude are not in a stall. They're simply flying in a decent with a high angle of attack that is still below critical.

The precise definition of a stall is a debatable point.

No.

A stall occurs when the critical angle of attack of the airfoil is exceeded. The critical angle of attack is the angle of attack on the Lc/AoA curve at which the max Lc occurs. Increasing AoA beyond the critical leads to a separation of airflow over the wing and a decrease in lift. A stall.

[FLS]

A stall occurs when the critical angle of attack of the airfoil is exceeded. The critical angle of attack is the angle of attack on the Lc/AoA curve at which the max Lc occurs. Increasing AoA beyond the critical leads to a separation of airflow over the wing and a decrease in lift. A stall.

That's a fine definition for a uniform wing section. What do you call it when the wing doesn't have the same AOA from root to tip?

Also most wings don't depart at Clmax, they lose lift as AOA increases but separation leading to departure occurs after that point which defines the stall.

[WaffenVW]

The definition of stall is when the critical angle of attack is exceeded. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Once the wing starts to lose lift it is by definition stalled. How deep it is into a stall or how much of the airflow is separated is a different matter entirely, and irrelevant. Whether the direction of flight is level, climbing or descending is also irrelevant. Only the angle of attack matters.

[FLS]

That's correct. So at 19 degrees AOA on your graph you are stalled and descending with a nose high attitude which is what I originally said and what Oldman objected to. 

[Zimme83]

Based on my experiences from stalling aircrafts i have to disagree with you FLS. It of course differ from one plane to another but unless we are talking modern fighter jets i have hard to believe that it is possible to fly a plane with stalled wings and still keep it under control. What you can do is flying in a near stall position and take advantage of the increased drag.

Only plane i know of that can do anything close to a post stall flight is the Cessna 150, with flaps up the elevators cannot increase AoA enough to make the plane stall so it ends up in a very near stall position in a slow descend.

Adding this vid, is shows that the stall happens very quick once critical AoA is reached and it result in pretty much total loss of lift.

[FLS]

Total loss of lift in the graph is at 22 degrees. Stall is 18 degrees. Say you're flying at 18.1 degrees. Now you're stalled. Not a huge difference. You are past CLmax and still flying under control. You haven't dropped your nose or a wing. 19 degrees is just a matter of degree.

And we are talking WW2 fighters generally not that particular lift curve which simply illustrates my point.

[Zimme83]

But it doesn't work the way you think it works, don't let the chart fool you. There isn't any gradual loss of lift post stall, you simply fall down plus you don't have any effect from the ailerons besides doing things even worse by put the plane into a spin. You cannot fly and control a plane with a stalled wing, especially not a WW2 fighter. (except for modern fighter jets of course.)

[Zimme83]

A video with a high AoA approach, were they use the increased drag to do a steeper approach and a shorter landing:


Note that wing is not stalled at any point during approach.

[earl1937]

The speed at which you can no longer maintain level flight is your stall speed. You disagree with that?

The precise definition of a stall is a debatable point. There is also the fact that wings will stall unevenly. For example if you have flaps down that portion of the wing will stall while your ailerons are not stalled. So are you then stalled or not stalled? Part of your wing exceeds the stall angle of attack and you're flying with full control while descending. What do you call that? If you drop a wing I call that a departure from controlled flight. If you control your descent I call it a good landing.

There is no debate about a stall! A stall is defined as when the wing stops producing lift! This can occur in a number of different ways, but the AOA certainly plays the important part of defining when a wing is stalled!
Another way to look at it is this: when the amount of wing area, as measured between the "separation" point and the leading edge of the wing, does not produce enough lift to support the aircraft in flight!
You can stall the aircraft in just about every attitude you can think of! A "deep" stall is the most dangerous of all stalls, as you can't get enough airflow over the control surfaces to change the attitude of the aircraft, so that the wing can regain flying speed. That is why most "heavy" aircraft of today are not stalled completely, only "approach" to stalls are demonstrated or practiced!