Author Topic: Hersey Bar Wing!  (Read 1774 times)

Offline earl1937

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Hersey Bar Wing!
« on: December 30, 2015, 02:55:50 AM »
 :airplane: There has been a "lively" discussion about landing the "Deuce" and it has brought many good points about a wing, flaps, slants and their effect on flight performance.
With the advantage of "hindsight", lets talk a little about the "shape" of the wing, different styles and shapes of wings and what the designers had in mind when they designed the wing for a particular aircraft.
The B-17! Everybody knows, or at least, most people know about the history of this aircraft and its roll in WW2!
The wing shape is known as a "Hersey" bar shaped wing because it is flat on the bottom and curved on the top!
The designers knew that the aircraft was going to be flown with very in-experienced pilots, some just out of flight school, so they had to design a wing which was very forgiving and docile in a stalled condition. They used a "split" flap design because that is the simplest flap design and is designed to do nothing except produce drag for landing!
The exact opposite of that was the wing on the B-26 "Martin", which was designed for speed, which the pilots, when introduced to this aircraft, soon named it, a "prostitute" because like them, had no visible means of support! It was also know as, "one a day in Tampa Bay" because it was a "bear" to land, because of the high speed necessary to land safely.
Getting back to the 17! The wing on it was designed to fly very slow, which produced easy landing handling and was very forgiving in all realms of flight, again, the designers kept in mind it was to be flown by in-experienced pilots under all kinds of conditions. This design produced flight conditions, even with two engines out on one side, to be acceptable and proved later to be correct in what the designers had in mind, something that would carry a acceptable load of ords, crew and fuel, yet be able to be handled by in-experienced pilots!
I won't go into technical aspects of the wing, other than to say that it had very little "wash" out, no "slants" or other devices in which to slow it down for landing! All the Army ask the designers to do was produce something that would cruise about 220MPH and land at 80MPH, carry 6,000 pounds of ord and be able to carry enough fuel to stay airborne about 6 hours. Tall order back in the day, but Boeing did it!
The primary concern was a wing that would stall evenly from tip to wing root, hence they decided the "Hersey" bar shape would be the best for that.
Now compare the B-24 wing with the 17! It, the 24 wing, was a "Laminar" flow type of design, which was designed primarily for speed and was trickily in slow fight conditions, when compared to the 17 wing! Condsidated tried to overcome the slow speed handling problems by installing a nose wheel, which helped in landings for sure. But that brought on more problems because with a single tail design of one vertical stabilizers, they found it wouldn't go into the hangars of the day with a nose wheel, so they decided to use a "split" vertical stabilizer and rudder combination which lowered the tail assembly enough to be able to pass into the hangars of the day back then. The 24 also had a "fowler" flap, which was designed to introduce lift at slow speeds and lower the stalling speed of the aircraft.
Sorry, didn't mean to write a "book" but this is an interesting way of introducing non-pilots in the game about why different wings on different aircraft in this game!     
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline 633DH98

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Re: Hersey Bar Wing!
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2015, 11:01:11 AM »
Hersey?  Perhaps you mean Hershey as in Hershey's chocolate made in Hershey PA?

Martin produced the B-26 Marauder.

"slants"?  Did you mean slats?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 11:04:42 AM by 633DH98 »
DecoyDuc  2 Nov 2008 - 16 Nov 2008  RIP

Offline bustr

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Re: Hersey Bar Wing!
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2015, 12:19:17 PM »
The Martin B-26 Marauder was a World War II twin-engined medium bomber built by the Glenn L. Martin Company from 1941 to 1945.
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Offline earl1937

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Re: Hersey Bar Wing!
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2015, 06:11:15 PM »
The Martin B-26 Marauder was a World War II twin-engined medium bomber built by the Glenn L. Martin Company from 1941 to 1945.
:airplane: While I quoted the 26 by saying B-26 "Martin",  I have known since 1948 who built the "Martin", as it was known in aviation circles in that era. didn't mean to confuse anyone and yes, I misspelled the "Hershey" bar wing name!
Just trying to show the differences in two different types of wings, for the guy on the street with no pilot training!
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline colmbo

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Re: Hersey Bar Wing!
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2015, 06:37:55 PM »
The wing on the -17 is not flat on the bottom, more a semi-symmetrical shape.  While the airplane is fairly docile at the stall she'll roll right over if you try to pick a wing up with aileron.  A couple of our pilots while playing around got to look at the earth through the upper edge of the windscreen.   :devil
Columbo

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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Hersey Bar Wing!
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2015, 07:04:00 PM »
DESIGN ANALYSIS OF The Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress

By Wellwood E Beall
Vice-President in charge of Engineering, Boeing Aircraft Company

http://legendsintheirowntime.com/B17/B17_articles/B17_Av_4501_DA.html

Boeing 299 B-17 Flying Fortress: root NACA 0018, tip NACA 0010

http://airfoiltools.com/search/list?page=n&no=3

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Hersey Bar Wing!
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2015, 12:15:00 AM »
The wing on the -17 is not flat on the bottom, more a semi-symmetrical shape.  While the airplane is fairly docile at the stall she'll roll right over if you try to pick a wing up with aileron.  A couple of our pilots while playing around got to look at the earth through the upper edge of the windscreen.


The very definition of excitement!

...you...uh...you wouldn't have been one of the, would you, Colmbo...?

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Offline WaffenVW

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Re: Hersey Bar Wing!
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2015, 04:11:53 PM »
There's nothing like a good ol' Earl post to get the pedantics excited.  :aok

Offline colmbo

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Re: Hersey Bar Wing!
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2015, 06:22:52 PM »

The very definition of excitement!

...you...uh...you wouldn't have been one of the, would you, Colmbo...?


No, I prefer to learn from your mistakes vs my own.  :D
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline earl1937

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Re: Hersey Bar Wing!
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2016, 03:55:00 AM »

The very definition of excitement!

...you...uh...you wouldn't have been one of the, would you, Colmbo...?

- oldman (can I try?)
:airplane: A very good example of why the 17 wing was so good! Again, I emphasis the idea behind the design of the wing, that it would be flown by in-experienced pilots for the most part and there fore had to be very for giving!
The pilot with the fewest hours flown, by a aircraft commander on a 17, was 144.5 hours. That in its self points out again what a great aircraft the 17 was.
I won't go into the accident rate of the 17 vs the 24, but suffice it to say, both aircraft were great aircraft of their time, but the 24 was a lot more challenging to fly than the 17...I haven't been able to find any "low" time pilots who flew the 24, but I did know one personally, Jasper C. Davis, who was an a/c on the Ploesti raids and he told me he had 440 hours when he was appointed a/c on the 24. That is not to say there weren't some that had less time, but that is the lowest that I know of!
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Hersey Bar Wing!
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2016, 06:51:59 AM »
How many inexperienced pilots in the USAAC were there in 1938?

Offline earl1937

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Re: Hersey Bar Wing!
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2016, 02:55:59 AM »
How many inexperienced pilots in the USAAC were there in 1938?
:airplane: Don't really know, but by the end of 1942, hundreds, if not thousands had gone through basic flight school and moved on to advanced classes, many of whom ended up as bomber pilots!
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Hersey Bar Wing!
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2016, 08:03:21 AM »
The first flying graduates for the B-17 was in 1943 > 1680 out of 24843 for '43 to '45.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a542518.pdf Table 47

Offline Bino

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Re: Hersey Bar Wing!
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2016, 04:19:01 PM »
...
The wing shape is known as a "Hersey" bar shaped wing because it is flat on the bottom and curved on the top!
...

My Dad was a mechanical engineer who became a licensed A&P mechanic and then spent almost twenty years teaching A&P at what was then called the Academy of Aeronautics out by LaGuardia airport in Queens NY.

He described the various Piper craft we often saw in the sky as having a "Hersey bar wing" because the wing planform had absolutely no taper near the tip(s).

<shrug>


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Offline colmbo

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Re: Hersey Bar Wing!
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2016, 04:48:20 PM »

He described the various Piper craft we often saw in the sky as having a "Hersey bar wing" because the wing planform had absolutely no taper near the tip(s).



Yeah, that's what I've always thought of when someone refers to the Hersey bar…early Cherokees had a non-tapered wing that looked like a…..Hersey Bar. :)
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"