Flight review and discussion on tactics

[49Dallas]

no guys I didn't expect him to fly straight and level. in the few years I've been playing I have never seen a guy fly like that. never. he controlled the fight for most of the vid and he would not use it. I expect the standard BnZ but he didn't even do that. he looked like he was flying around waiting for a perfect shot and those don't happen. I tell you what I would have done #1 not fly a 51. #2 if I had been him I would have used my E pulled up couple notches of flaps and dropped in on one of my lazy turns and shot me or at least forced me lower. but he never thought past I don't want to get shot during the initial fight, or I'm looking for a good shot. to me his reasons are his own it was a waste of time to watch him burn holes in the sky. and I don't like the guy. haven't flown in a month and the first fight is this guy who is supposed to be good and all I get is this. and as soon as he dropped in with lower fight he loses his mind and forgets all the other bad guys and throws out staying fast. so if he didn't care enough about staying alive at the end why fly the way he did at the start? it didn't add up to me and thus the dumbest dogfight I've been in.

I've had this happen to me, Even with yak 3's. You line up on a shot and the yak maneuvers out of your line, This happens a few times. Eventually one of four things will happen.

1. You will get a shot and make it happen.
2. He will turn to HO you.
3. You will get sloppy with your E and he will teach you a lesson.
4. The Yak will dive out and run home.

Vudu commented the 51 wasn't pulling hard enough to make his shots.

 This is a good tactic to avoid bleeding to much speed and allowing the Yak to gain the advantage.

Vudu commented that "If I had been him I would have used my E pulled up couple notches of flaps and dropped in on one of my lazy turns and shot me or at least forced me lower."

This would be a bad idea to try to turn with a yak, And a worse idea to push the yak lower. Vudu dove and the 51 followed him and paid the price trying to fight the yak on the deck.

I'm not trying to start anything but I just want some opinions on what should've happened, and what to do in the future. I'm really looking forward to seeing pony drivers like Semp comment.

[BuckShot]

Just fly off map to avoid getting shot

[waystin2]

The Yak of any kind is out of his depth at those altitudes. Against a Yak-The higher it goes, the better the pony gets.  You have speed and therefore vertical on him.  The pony also has a great instantaneous turn and a much longer range.  Stretch him out on his fuel then drive him crazy when he wants to go home.  It's what Jazzi would do.  Keep the speed up and keep dropping on his head.  If he keeps doing that roll to force you out front compensate for it and try and shoot where you think he will be.  Rinse and repeat.  The Yak is a small and nimble target.  Very hard to get hits on. 

[Vudak]

I only skimmed the video but it seemed like the pony had an initial E advantage that was not pressed and therefore was neutralized.

If you are BnZ or E-fighting someone, the objective is to reduce their energy to the point where they can no longer evade your shots and the longer you extend, the more time you give them to build E.  While taking a half-hearted pass and then extending for several thousand feet may keep you alive, it also helps to keep them alive.  The pony basically did nothing to help his own cause here.

[elc7367b]

 

Just fly off map to avoid getting shot

[49Dallas]

The Yak of any kind is out of his depth at those altitudes. Against a Yak-The higher it goes, the better the pony gets.  You have speed and therefore vertical on him.  The pony also has a great instantaneous turn and a much longer range.  Stretch him out on his fuel then drive him crazy when he wants to go home.  It's what Jazzi would do.  Keep the speed up and keep dropping on his head.  If he keeps doing that roll to force you out front compensate for it and try and shoot where you think he will be.  Rinse and repeat.  The Yak is a small and nimble target.  Very hard to get hits on.

You do have speed but not a lot, Vudu was cruising at 350 at the start of the film. The 51's speed at 20k is about 390. I think the 51 would zoom climb better if you wanted to try to take him up, make him stall, and hammerhead on him. Dazy controlled the fight for most of the film. I think Dazy could've been a bit more aggressive but how much more before he got sloppy and into a turn fight with the yak? I think It's a slippery slope. So what do you do? You BnZ him, and it goes back to my list of things that may happen.


1. You will get a shot and make it happen.
2. He will turn to HO you.
3. You will get sloppy with your E and he will teach you a lesson.
4. The Yak will dive out and run home.

Hopefully you can try and predict what he's going to do and get the shot on him, like you said. If you try to take him up but he's to smart to fall for it what then? You're stuck BnZing him? What if you keep trying and just can't make it happen like Dazy in the video? You go right back to my list. He's going to HO, or run home, or you're going to get sloppy and die.

I only skimmed the video but it seemed like the pony had an initial E advantage that was not pressed and therefore was neutralized.

If you are BnZ or E-fighting someone, the objective is to reduce their energy to the point where they can no longer evade your shots and the longer you extend, the more time you give them to build E.  While taking a half-hearted pass and then extending for several thousand feet may keep you alive, it also helps to keep them alive.  The pony basically did nothing to help his own cause here.

I agree with you, He should've kept pressing and draining Vudu's E. I think it was smart to extend but he did extend to far and allow Vudu to get his E back. It's a tough call trying to figure out E states, when do you press, when to extend, ect.

Just fly off map to avoid getting shot

You know, It's funny. People go off the map every day and nobody says a thing about it. We go off the map because we're being vulched on the runway for our mega mission and you won't stop crying about it. Why don't you go ahead and pound sand.

 

You too.

[guncrasher]

out of curiosity who was vulching you on the runway?



semp

[DREDIOCK]

I wasnt particularly impressed with either pilot.

Pony was a bit under aggressive and extending out far more then he needed to. The biggest favor the Yak driver did for himself was when he finally turned his back to him. Even then he didn't do a real good job of using the ponies advantage against him and forcing the overshoot. I kept watching this film from the perspective of the Yak driver since the pony driver didnt seem to be doing anything that spectacular. I kept thinking "ok break in then out". "split S then Yoyo" or simply just "Roll". Often the moves and or turns were contrary to ones that would have provided a shot or quickly placed the pony on the defensive.

When faced with that type of tactics the pony was using I'll prefer to turn my back to him and force the fight to come to me rather then try and play monkey in the middle and make my E and alt state even more disadvantageous then it already is.(Pet comes to master. Master doesnt chase pet) This accomplishes a couple of things. As I extend out I am able to maintain my E. Whereas whenever he pulls up for the zoom out he looses a little each time. Also when they come in like that its usually blazing fast and usually easy to jink  or do some sort of roll or out and in maneuver and force a miss and perhaps get a shot on him as he passes by.

Even if I do not initially get a shot as he passes by on one of his flybys he usually bleeds more and more E with each pass and eventually one of two things usually happens. Either our E stats are as such as he no longer has a great advantage. And/or my dodges cause him to get frustrated and do something stupid.
There is a mental aspect of the game nobody seems to think about and it has nothing to do with trash talking

As a defender the ponies initial tactics are the easiest to deal with. I'd be more likely to die from boredom then anything that pony was doing.

From the ponies standpoint. Fine tactics for attacking a group of bombers or large formations of fighters where you are vastly outnumbered and you can change targets as to whom you are going to shoot at out at a milliseconds notice of convenience.

But against a single fighter unless you catch him sleeping or afk...not so much. I can dodge this attack till I run out of gas. Pony had the Yak turning nose to him and following him after most passes. Thus bleeding his E. Instead of using this to his advantage by leading the Yak up with a good chance a rope or forcing the Yakt o dive out thus firmly planting himself on the Yaks 6 He blew this situation by extending too far to the point where when he finally did come back. He came back to the same E situation he started with. He accomplished nothing with these passes but in being a housefly like pest. Annoying, but not very dangerous.

If you notice he didnt score any real hits until he became more aggressive at lower altitude. Then he flipped his tactics and instead of being under aggressive he then became over aggressive.

The pony should have won this fight and had every opportunity from start to end. but didnt.
Yak did an ok job evading but not at countering.
 This fight went on about 6 minutes longer then it should have

[Vudak]

You do have speed but not a lot, Vudu was cruising at 350 at the start of the film. The 51's speed at 20k is about 390. I think the 51 would zoom climb better if you wanted to try to take him up, make him stall, and hammerhead on him. Dazy controlled the fight for most of the film.

I respectfully disagree with the bolded part.  The only reason Dazy didn't have more than one 4.5k extension was that Vudu decided to stick with him.  There were a few moments where Dazy could have taken control of the fight (one was at 3 minute something, another at 5 minute something) --there were flashes where he could have taken charge--but rather than commit or maneuver in such a way to point his nose at the prize, Dazy surrendered his six and flew away and let Vudu recover.

I don't think Dazy controlled anything here - the only time he acquired Vudu's six was when Vudu had to bug out because two cons (both likely with more E) showed up.  Had they not come, this "fight" could have gone on indefinitely.

I think Dazy could've been a bit more aggressive but how much more before he got sloppy and into a turn fight with the yak? I think It's a slippery slope. So what do you do? You BnZ him, and it goes back to my list of things that may happen.


1. You will get a shot and make it happen.
2. He will turn to HO you.
3. You will get sloppy with your E and he will teach you a lesson.
4. The Yak will dive out and run home.

Hopefully you can try and predict what he's going to do and get the shot on him, like you said. If you try to take him up but he's to smart to fall for it what then? You're stuck BnZing him? What if you keep trying and just can't make it happen like Dazy in the video? You go right back to my list. He's going to HO, or run home, or you're going to get sloppy and die.

Are you familiar with a high yoyo?  It's very effective when you have an E advantage on someone who is trying to get you to overshoot.  It also allows you to continue to press the attack quickly and force the lower con to keep using E to avoid you.  Eventually, you can chop throttle or use flaps and commit to a shot and try to kill him.  Basically if he turns to the left and you yoyo up and to the left, you're turning with him but using the vertical to keep with his turn even though you are faster and/or in a worse turning plane.  This generally makes him keep turning more rapidly, losing more E. If you go straight up and away, you are extending away from him which allows him to straighten and acquire E.

I agree with you, He should've kept pressing and draining Vudu's E. I think it was smart to extend but he did extend to far and allow Vudu to get his E back. It's a tough call trying to figure out E states, when do you press, when to extend, ect.

It is a tough call but it comes with experience.  Unfortunately that acquiring that experience often means a trip back to the tower

FWIW, if Dazy had made a few such lazy passes he likely could have acquired Vudu's six by suddenly getting aggressive "sleeper car style" but this never happened.  (This is basically how 190's, 51's, and other stuff can occasionally win merges against better turning planes - the better turner figures they'd better do a gentle, E-retaining merge because they're afraid the bandit's going to run run run away, then they find to their horror that the pony came to play ).

YMMV.

[JunkyII]

Can't really discuss any tactics in that film...unless it's a "Don't do this" Nothing from either pilot was good.

The merge was pretty close to equal which Vudu failed hard with whatever that manuever was where he lost like 30 mph in like a second and gained 0 angles.

I'm in the Yak vs same P51 same set up. I'm going to dive below and angle in at the P51 in order to gain more E and angles. I would go with more of an E merge at first until I saw what the 51 did...if he pulls hard in the merge I'm going to start working angles...if he goes vertical in a E merge..I'm going to try to top out with him then stall behind him and not let him get away....if he extends away. I HOLD the alt I just gained and follow level building up speed...rinse repeat.

As the P51D...I would go vertical and try for rope. I can zoom climb with him...the advantage I would have at top would be in a NOSE DOWN fight...spiraling down I would have better flaps and rudder control...you can get behind Spits in a P51 in a spiral down fight...just ask Midway

Only way to take anything from this is to talk about what to do...because this is an example of what not to do on both ends.

And this guy thinks I need alt to kill him Any plane 1v1 I'd be 10-0 easily Vudu.

[49Dallas]

Can't really discuss any tactics in that film...unless it's a "Don't do this" Nothing from either pilot was good.

The merge was pretty close to equal which Vudu failed hard with whatever that manuever was where he lost like 30 mph in like a second and gained 0 angles.

I'm in the Yak vs same P51 same set up. I'm going to dive below and angle in at the P51 in order to gain more E and angles. I would go with more of an E merge at first until I saw what the 51 did...if he pulls hard in the merge I'm going to start working angles...if he goes vertical in a E merge..I'm going to try to top out with him then stall behind him and not let him get away....if he extends away. I HOLD the alt I just gained and follow level building up speed...rinse repeat.

As the P51D...I would go vertical and try for rope. I can zoom climb with him...the advantage I would have at top would be in a NOSE DOWN fight...spiraling down I would have better flaps and rudder control...you can get behind Spits in a P51 in a spiral down fight...just ask Midway

Only way to take anything from this is to talk about what to do...because this is an example of what not to do on both ends.

And this guy thinks I need alt to kill him Any plane 1v1 I'd be 10-0 easily Vudu.

Maybe I should've said it differently. The point of this thread is "What should Dazy have done" There have been some good suggestions like Vudak said to high yoyo, You suggested what I had previously suggested with the rope. I like your nose down spiraling idea, I've used that tactic with some success.

Do I smell a duel? Junky vs Vudu15? 

[Changeup]

BTW, 40 knots is a ton of speed differential.  If you are minimizing a 51 with 40 kts of speed on you plus altitude, you need to go back to class.

A.  All good fights happen on the deck
B.  The YAK has no business fighting the 51 up there (see Waystin's comments)
C.  The YAK should have known that and taken the 51 straight to the deck where he could have worked the speed differential back down
D.  Once on the deck, the YAK's acceleration would mitigate the 51's second notch of flaps.  You survive the 51's two-notch, shot-pull and you'll pwn him on the deck in a YAK...if you have any hideous rounds left to shoot.  Most likely you'll be shooting peanuts at him by then and you'll die of boredom chasing him around because you can't disengage to go home...tiger by the tail.
E.  See A.

Lesson 2 - When fighting 109 and 190 variants, turn right YOYO (except the 109F, then, you'll actually have to out fly the pilot)

[JunkyII]

Maybe I should've said it differently. The point of this thread is "What should Dazy have done" There have been some good suggestions like Vudak said to high yoyo, You suggested what I had previously suggested with the rope. I like your nose down spiraling idea, I've used that tactic with some success.

Do I smell a duel? Junky vs Vudu15? 

It wouldn't be fun for either, I actually like when I lose.

BTW, 40 knots is a ton of speed differential.  If you are minimizing a 51 with 40 kts of speed on you plus altitude, you need to go back to class.

A.  All good fights happen on the deck
B.  The YAK has no business fighting the 51 up there (see Waystin's comments)
C.  The YAK should have known that and taken the 51 straight to the deck where he could have worked the speed differential back down
D.  Once on the deck, the YAK's acceleration would mitigate the 51's second notch of flaps.  You survive the 51's two-notch, shot-pull and you'll pwn him on the deck in a YAK...if you have any hideous rounds left to shoot.  Most likely you'll be shooting peanuts at him by then and you'll die of boredom chasing him around because you can't disengage to go home...tiger by the tail.
E.  See A.

Lesson 2 - When fighting 109 and 190 variants, turn right YOYO (except the 109F, then, you'll actually have to out fly the pilot)

He blew 40 Knots of speed with that ""merge"" (I quote merge because I don't know WTF it was)

He would have been fine fighting him up there...if the P51 actually did commit to a fight it would have slowly gone lower like most fights eventually do.

[Changeup]

It wouldn't be fun for either, I actually like when I lose.
He blew 40 Knots of speed with that ""merge"" (I quote merge because I don't know WTF it was)

He would have been fine fighting him up there...if the P51 actually did commit to a fight it would have slowly gone lower like most fights eventually do.

I know.  Read what he wrote about the differential though.  He is wrong.  Just because the guy blew the E doesn't mean it was insignificant.  Any self respecting 51 driver WOULD have let it get low.  But the YAK clearly didn't know where his advantages were nor how to show the 51 enough leg to get him to follow. 

This was like watching two Englishmen drink tea...

[waystin2]

Do I smell a duel? Junky vs Vudu15? 

Vudu does not have enough pancake mix for Junky.  He is Pig feed.