The T+60 Rule.

[Squire]

The practice has been and will continue to be that ALL strike aircraft attack their targets by T+60 minutes after roll. How many a/c may have attacked or will attack after you is of no matter. You have an hour. That's it.

Also, if it looks like your current course is going to make you late you should be adjusting it if at all possible.

Posted because its a very important rule and we need to end any confusion about it.

Thanks guys.

[Snork]

Thank you for the clarification. You guys do good work!

[WxMan]

Then change the rule in AH Events to specifically reflect what you stated here so there can be no further ambiguity.

[Devil 505]

Thus endeth the discussion.

[Joker312]

I don't see where it states that ALL attack a/c must hit a target by T+60.

The rule on the AWEvents site does state that "all targets must be attacked within 60 mins of the start of frame" and that the objectives " must be attacked/defended by a CREDIBLE force",
of a minimum of 12 a/c.

If this is incorrect then it is not reflected on the AHEvents website.

Attacking with all your assets in 60 mins make the remaining hour boring as it it very rare for 2nd strikes in FSO as the rules are currently written. It also makes the event very predictable and leaves the attacking forces little room for creativity or deception with their plans.

The timeframe for the event is 2 hours. There should be 2 hours of possible action, not a huge battle in the first 60 Min's and nothing for the next 60.

[49Dallas]

I don't see where it states that ALL attack a/c must hit a target by T+60.

The rule on the AWEvents site does state that "all targets must be attacked within 60 mins of the start of frame" and that the objectives " must be attacked/defended by a CREDIBLE force",
of a minimum of 12 a/c.

If this is incorrect then it is not reflected on the AHEvents website.

Attacking with all your assets in 60 mins make the remaining hour boring as it it very rare for 2nd strikes in FSO as the rules are currently written. It also makes the event very predictable and leaves the attacking forces little room for creativity or deception with their plans.

The timeframe for the event is 2 hours. There should be 2 hours of possible action, not a huge battle in the first 60 Min's and nothing for the next 60.

I agree with this. It takes a long time to climb out and fly to target heavy, And not very long at all to RTB most times. Because of the way it's set up, FSO can feel the same every event regardless of the plane-set or target. I think there needs to be some kind of change. Give an hour and a half to hit targets, And give each set of defenders two targets to hit, Or a choice of two targets and they have to hit on and defend one. Currently everyone knows what's going to be hit and what needs to be defended. If you're defending you climb out to your maximum altitude and wait 40 minutes for the bombers to get there. It's literally the same strategy every single FSO.

I'm not saying the 49thFG uses the same stratagy. We come up with some creative stuff, Considering the limited amount of time that we have. Your strategy planning is very limited considering your hour time limit, forced to attack one target while the defenders know what you're hitting, and if you know the climb and cruse speed of bombers it's not hard to figure out when and where they will likely hit.

[Drano]

A long long time ago I was a frame CiC. It was before the T+60 rule. I devised a strike with Ju88s. I started in reverse finding exactly how long it would take to get from the target to the closest friendly base before T+120. It was a Pacific map, want to say it was Midway, so distances were long. I needed to hit a base on the east side of the map. So we went a bit South, turned East, did several laps around a sector a good bit South of the target until a certain time at which we came North and hit the target. The idea was to run the defenders out of fuel and minimize their impact on us. It worked. There were only a few left when we got there and only lost a few drones. Totally wrecked the target. Landed almost every bird in the mission with a couple of minutes to spare. I was feeling pretty good about myself as that went off just like I drew it up! Which rarely happens hehe.

Then the forum basically exploded with rants from the other side that did not appreciate my particular brand of strategery one bit! I'd basically ruined the other side's evening by forcing them to bore holes in the sky for about an hour and a half. Which was true. Thinking about it I thought if I were them I'd been pissed too.

The idea is to come up with a plan that promotes a battle, not avoid it. It's nice to have some means of injecting strategy into an attack plan. There's plenty that can be done in 60 minutes to accomplish that. That said something I just can't stand is a total lack of imagination/effort that draws a straight line from base A to base B. That's no fun either IMO. Of course ymmv.

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[Dantoo]

The practice has been and will continue to be that ALL strike aircraft attack their targets by T+60 minutes after roll. How many a/c may have attacked or will attack after you is of no matter. You have an hour. That's it.

Also, if it looks like your current course is going to make you late you should be adjusting it if at all possible.

Posted because its a very important rule and we need to end any confusion about it.

Thanks guys.

That's NEVER been the rule til just now.

Go back far enough and,
You used to have 2 hours to hit a target and you didn't even have to hit all of them (or defend all of them).

We had a number of changes, over time, to get to where we are today.  Every week there were people missing out on seeing even a single red icon.  For a long time it was simply taken as immersive and realistic.
As time passed changes were sought because it was rare, but possible, for you to go a couple of weeks without any action at all.  The other side of it was that some people were getting swarmed - a case of far too much action!

As far as attacks go, it was first deemed enough to flash a base, then it was ok to fire some guns at a target, and finally you had to deliver some ord.

Attacking a base in the first 60 minutes came about because CICs used to get the dumb idea that they could run the other side out of fuel if they held off long enough.  It never worked out that way.  There was always enough fuel to defend.  Too often people clocked off though because they thought the other side wasn't going to show at all.  Reasonable basis for a grumble.

When the compulsory attack by 60 minutes concept was raised there was a lot of hubub.  "What if you get shot down before you get there?"  What if it actually isn't possible because of arena set-ups or failures?  Why are we doing this again?

It was made clear that the purpose was to make sure that anybody "defending" was going to have seen some action of some kind by the end of the first hour.  (It was never about measuring and penalising if an object wasn't broken by 59:59).
CiCs did game the new rule at first by sending over a single fighter with ord and having it drop and dive away.  This was countered by the "reasonable force" amendment.

It was made very clear that the rule was about what the CIC had planned, not what eventuated.  The CIC had to plan to strike all targets with a reasonable force and to plan to do so in the first hour.  That was it (and has been it).
It was made crystal clear by the CMs that if something happened then they would be the sole arbiters and it was going to be judged completely upon intent.  It was always acknowledged that many many things could stand in the way of a piece of ordnance striking a target before a particular moment.  It has always been clear, and has always been administered, that it is about ensuring that defenders get a chance at action before the first hour is up and that there has been no deliberate attempt to prevent that.
It was never written that a bomb had to strike a target by the 60 minute mark and there's good reason for that.

If you think you are about to solve a problem by bringing down a hard line that moves beyond the original purpose and intent of the rule, then I fear you are about to place a heavy millstone around your own necks.  It is not needed.  Stick to what has been and should remain.  CICs should plan to attack all targets assigned, with ordnance and a reasonable force, in the first hour.  Let the CMs remain as the arbiters of whether the CIC has fulfilled the spirit and intent of the rule for the greater good.

Here's a suggestion:  How about we have a few FSOs like those of a decade or more back when we had no ord on any plane at all.
Those were quite popular as I remember.

[Squire]

CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60

That's a direct quote.

Its the stated rule and the common practice.

It is the rule.

It will remain the rule.

[Joker312]

CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60

That's a direct quote.

Its the stated rule and the common practice.

It is the rule.

It will remain the rule.

In the English language "initial" does no equal "all". Nor does it mean "every". It is my understanding that it means "beginning, first, or initial" which would imply there was more to come I.E. A secondary or follow on strike.

So an example would be 12 aircraft attack each of the assigned targets by T+60. There is no reason that another strike can not arrive anytime after and still satisfy the intent that all defenders see action in the 1st hour of the frame.

That is the rule.

You are just not seeing it correctly for some unknown reason.

It's unfortunate that the head CM for FSO cannot read and understand a simple sentence. Is it so hard to be reasonable about this.

What started this was that a strike group was a little late. Big deal, it's gonna happen every now and then. The fact is they made an attempt to arrive on time. If you need to impose some sort of penalty, that's ok. Please don't try to twist a sentence around to mean something that it does not.

[Joker312]

Btw 16 Bf110's attacked the base before the 60 min mark. That satisfies the rule that a "credible, initial attack occurs before T+60".

[Dantoo]

CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60

That's a direct quote.

Its the stated rule and the common practice.

It is the rule.

It will remain the rule.

I'm pleased to hear that.  Very pleased.  It directly contradicts this post:

The practice has been and will continue to be that ALL strike aircraft attack their targets by T+60 minutes after roll. How many a/c may have attacked or will attack after you is of no matter. You have an hour. That's it.

Also, if it looks like your current course is going to make you late you should be adjusting it if at all possible.

Posted because its a very important rule and we need to end any confusion about it.

It throws the ball back to where it has always been - the CIC and the way they construct the orders.  It does not say anything at all about "All strike aircraft".  It also does not say a thing about bombs hitting targets by T+60 as a marker.  It does not even hint at penalties being handed out because the designer decided to throw a 25mph wind in the face of the attackers.  It also leaves the discretion for decisions about whether the orders have been constructed in that manner or otherwise to the CMs, as it should.

[Squire]

all initial attack aircraft

The rule uses the word all for a reason. It means all. As in 100 percent. As in every single one of them.

Sorry I used the word strike rather than attack.

The rule still applies.

The rule applies if I called them strafers. The rule would apply if I called them bombers. ect.

The rule would apply if I hate green eggs and ham. 

[Joker312]

Sir, you cannot take 1 word out of a sentence and use it to support your point. The word must be used in the context it was intended. Thus if I were to say "all BLUE aircraft MUST" then this would not imply ALL aircraft....just blue ones. Aircraft of differing colors do not have the same requirement.

Please understand that the word INITIAL makes it very clear that all aircraft are not blue in this situation.

[APDrone]

These things tend to go in cycles.. I wonder how many veterans saw this renewed topic pop up and thought "Here we go, again."

I think the last time this got intense, we had just gone through a rules revision, and, whereas we noted that there was room for fog on the 'all ' aspect of ord delivered, we didn't make the addendum to the rules, as everybody was tired of changing the rules again.  AT THE TIME ( several years ago ) all the players understood the intent of the existing rule and the quibbling stopped.

Perhaps it's time to readdress and hammer it down.

Any plane launching with ordnance must release said ordnance within T+60 of the frame start time.  Should there be occasions with multiple lives, then exceptions can be made at that time.