The T+60 Rule.

[Zoney]

Gentlemen and Ladies.  It was my understanding that all targets must be hit by a credible force by T+60.  If I am mistaken then I stand corrected.  However, I think that is how it should be played.  If every bomb must be dropped, every strafer must strafe by T+60 I think that would change the dynamic significantly of the battle.  There is so much more to the strategy of having 2nd and/or third strike groups hitting their targets.  Maybe the first strike was low and now you have to climb back out to  the possible 2nd strike hitting high.  Maybe you have to refuel and rearm.  Maybe you can't commit your entire defensive package to the first raid with the possibility of a 2nd.

My point is, there are many more possibilities to contend with if ALL bombs do not need to be dropped by T+60 and I believe that adds to the game and the fun.

[qbert55ca]

My two cents worth, (0.036cdn).

1. The credible force of a strike package (12 at present) must have hit their target by T+60. This does not mean that the target can not be hit again by the same and or another group after T+60.

2. Sending in fighter bombers with bombs to adhere to the T+60 rule DOES NOT count as bombs out on target. In the event that a strike package of 12 + fighter bombers is the only package to deliver bombs then they are considered bombers and restricted to bomber altitudes.

3. T+60 means T+60, Must have hit. means bombs from the entire initial strike package have hit within the target area.

4. Minimum numbers of planes that must be flown need to be lowered to numbers that the CIC can work with to provide a credible defence force.

Qbert

[Squire]

Im done here. The rule has been explained.

[tmetal]

I am getting weary of the English language debate.

Initial refers to the T+0 strike planes.

All means 100 percent of them.

To drop by T+60 minutes.

If initial referred to all the T+0 strike planes then there would be no need to include the part about "credible force of 12 planes", but I can understand your interpretation of the wordage even if I don't agree with it.  However and respectfully, your interpretation appears to be in the minority as well as the more limiting version.  So why as CM's and a group of people who want to do their best to provide a fun and popular event on Friday nights would you want to mandate this unpopular decision?  Does it not make sense to not put such strict limits on the FSO event?  Would your interpretation not result in massive log off of the FSO players shortly after T+60 on many setups?

I.E. "alright defenders, it's t+70 and every attacker has either been shot down or is RTB and due to the size of the map there is no possibility of a second wave.  Go ahead and land to save the points on the plane, no reason to keep flying in circles"

wouldn't you rather promote a situation were the defenders have to consider the high probability of secondary waves of attackers shortly after T+60?  Wouldn't this give the attackers a more probable outcome of a longer time period of "fun" as reward for their staying on station.

To summarize: your interpretation of the rule will guarantee that certain setups basically end for a large portion of each side shortly after T+60 as well as make attack plans more predictable for the defenders, would this help or hurt the overall FSO experience?

Squire, please believe me that I say all this not to be rude, snarky or impetuous but only as a way to help state some of the reasons why people are pushing back so hard on your interpretation of the rule.

[Joker312]

What a sad response. Your weary!

It was my hope that we could come to a better solution. Even if that was a change in the way the rules are written to make things clearer in support of your position.

Instead you make another statement that can be misunderstood and misused.

I refer to " initial means T+0 " which implies that any ordnance carrying aircraft can be delayed by a few minutes and not be subject to the rule.

With this rule we should end the frame after T+60 and call it a night. No need to land, no 2nd strikes, no more FSO.

[captain1ma]

does 10 or 15 minutes REALLY make that MUCH difference?? sheesh!! did the bomber in WW2 drop their bombs exactly on time, or did they run into little things like head wind, or fighters or ack or whatever. so one squad was a little off, does it really matter that much. did it change the score that much? seems to me, the target was pretty well trashed before those bombers showed up. they were just frosting on the cake.

maybe it was a diversion, maybe it was planned? who knows? but it happened, and no ones first born died because of it.

when I look at the map, it seems to me, the allies had a shorter distance to travel, in faster planes then the axis did. now its just my opinion and not fact, so don't get your panties in a bunch. im just saying.

I always thought we're in this for the fun. axis loses more then it wins, actually axis loses most of the time. I don't see anyone squawking about that. but jeez, one fighter/bomber group goes awry and holy hell breaks lose? lets just play the game and chalk it up to ooopsy, and do better next time.....

besides what are we going to do? take away the points because they're a little off, well ok so you beat the axis by 500 points instead of 300 points. if that's what turns your crankcase, then maybe you should consider lightening up a little, life's too short. 

[Dantoo]

I wonder how many veterans saw this renewed topic pop up and thought "Here we go, again."

Me for one.  It's been fine.  If you want to go through that storm again for an outcome where nobody gains (again) then go for it.
Time I found something else to do at this time of the week anyhow.

[puller]

I always thought we're in this for the fun. axis loses more then it wins, actually axis loses most of the time. I don't see anyone squawking about that. but jeez, one fighter/bomber group goes awry and holy hell breaks lose?

I've been thinking this since the whole chitstorm started...

[Squire]

What a sad response. Your weary!

...well thanks for taking it upon yourself to elevate the debate.

Cheers.

[Zoney]

The practice has been and will continue to be that ALL strike aircraft attack their targets by T+60 minutes after roll. How many a/c may have attacked or will attack after you is of no matter. You have an hour. That's it.

Yeah, my mistake, I did not comprehend what I was reading and acted as if this was a discussion, my bad, carry on, I'm perfectly fine with it.  Thanks.

[Joker312]

It seems our lead CM, in a burst of uncharacteristic energy, found it only necessary to address my elevation of this debate.

In the absence of any other guidance, I shall attempt to clarify this dilemma.

The rules state that all initial attack aircraft must hit their targets by T+60. (At least 12 aircraft per target which can be 4 sets of bombers) Attack aircraft that are tasked to be follow on strikes can arrive any time after T+60 but not later than end frame.

This rule will ensure that everyone sees action in the first 60 Min's of the frame but it will not preclude the opportunity for a second or third strike and also ensure that the full 120 mins frame has an chance for meaningful activity.

The CM team will strive to ensure that map distances, wind settings, and the overall design of the FSO is such that all of the above is taken into consideration and the players can maximize their enjoyment in this special event.

The CM team takes all of your concerns very seriously and will do everything possible to satisfy them in the best interest of all concerned.

Thankyou

[ImADot]

The rules state that all initial attack aircraft must hit their targets by T+60. (At least 12 aircraft per target which can be 4 sets of bombers)

Actually, it says 12 players, not 12 aircraft.

[Joker312]

I stand corrected. 12 players it is.

Thankyou ImADot.

[Squire]

The rules state that all initial attack aircraft must hit their targets by T+60

Thanks for clearing that up for all of us. 

[Bannor]

 

Give me my plane and my orders and I will do my best to accomplish the mission. I could care less if my plane is better or worse than the plane I am flying up against. I always make an honest effort to accomplish the mission, and have fun while I'm doing it. If you say that ALL ATTACKING AIRCRAFT MUST HIT THE TARGET BY T+60, then I will make sure to try and get this done by T+60. I reserve the right however to make a second pass in bombers if I am not lined up correctly on my target due to trying to defend my plane while trying to line up and calibrate. That is unless my chances of survival depend on me scooting out of the attack area due to heavy defense of the target. I would rather not drop ord on nothing but that may be the case. Sometimes we plan our attacks to be near T+60 mostly to run the defenders out of fuel and ammo and to drive them to a lower alt. with our escorts/ air cover. If you require that I drop all my bombs in one pass even though I know I'm only going to hit the ground and nothing else then I will, but I will say a "pox on you!",  and do as I am commanded. I don't bend the rules or game the game. I enjoy the company of my squaddies, and I enjoy flying with people who fly in the MA who are wooks and knitties. HAVING FUN IS THE KEY HERE AND RISING UP TO ANY AND ALL CHALLENGES. Folks go to great lengths on this board to make a point and if you guys have to argue about it time and time again especially when something didn't work out or go your own way, then you have missed the point. Team work, friends and fun. If none of that works for you then you should ask yourself why are you even here? I know that red lives matter, but I'm still gonna shoot em!