Dogfight : F35 vs F16

[Ack-Ack]

The pilot has eyes and a radio. He can perform recce missions.

The pilot has eyes and the plane can carry bombs. He can perform CAS and Assault Support Escort.

The pilot has eyes and the radar works for four hours and the plane can carry AIM-120s and AIM-9X (externally). He can perform Offensive and Defensive Counter Air, Air Interdiction.


The pilot can perform all these missions in a minimum usefully deployable form.

The F-35B is currently operational with a USMC squadron and it cannot perform any of those missions in its current operational state.  The F-35A, currently, can't even use the AIM-120 without a 3rd party providing the target info.  The F-35 has to slow down from max speed if it wants to fire any missile or counter measure. 

[GScholz]

In other words it can do all of that in a minimum usefully deployable form.

Maybe it is a language barrier thing. Maybe minimum usefully means something entirely different in American English.

[Zimme83]

Minimum deployable form in this case is a squadron. It means that you have atleast one squadron deployable. But that squadron should be fully capable of performing combat missions.

[GScholz]

Pardon me if I choose the US military's definition of the term over yours.

[Zimme83]

Lol, it IS their definition. Just read it.

[GScholz]

Yes, please do.

https://www.f35.com/assets/uploads/downloads/12994/f-35_ioc_joint_report_final.pdf

"Executive Summary

Air Force F-35A initial operational capability (IOC) shall be declared when the first operational squadron is equipped with 12-24 aircraft, and Airmen are trained, manned, and equipped to conduct basic Close Air Support (CAS), Interdiction, and limited Suppression and Destruction of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD/DEAD) operations in a contested environment. Based on the current F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) schedule, the F-35A will reach the IOC milestone between August 2016 (Objective) and December 2016 (Threshold). Should capability delivery experience changes or delays, this estimate will be revised appropriately.

Marine Corps F-35B IOC shall be declared when the first operational squadron is equipped with 10-16 aircraft, and US Marines are trained, manned, and equipped to conduct CAS, Offensive and Defensive Counter Air, Air Interdiction, Assault Support Escort, and Armed Reconnaissance in concert with Marine Air Ground Task Force resources and capabilities. Based on the current F-35 JPO schedule, the F-35B will reach the IOC milestone between July 2015 (Objective) and December 2015 (Threshold). Should capability delivery experience changes or delays, this estimate will be revised appropriately.

Navy F-35C IOC shall be declared when the first operational squadron is equipped with 10 aircraft, and Navy personnel are trained, manned and equipped to conduct assigned missions. Based on the current F-35 JPO schedule, the F-35C will reach the IOC milestone between August 2018 (Objective) and February 2019 (Threshold). Should capability delivery experience changes or delays, this estimate will be revised appropriately."

[Vraciu]

You're being foolish.  If the US backs off on orders, you can bet your sweet tush that other nations will take notice. 

Chances are fairly high that the F-35 orders are going to be throttled back for the US.  Beyond the failures of the program, the F-35 costs far too much for what it can deliver, especially at a time when other as important if not more important defense projects are crying for money.

LockMart just fired 1000 people.

This boondoggle is about to get harpooned.

[Vraciu]

There have been articles written about USAF officers being ORDERED to not speak badly of the F35.  This has been covered before - and like I said before, WHEN has the USAF EVER had to order someone to not slag a new fighter?  From the last one, the F22, to the F15E, the F15/F16, and so on, all there was in the media was rave reviews, and rightfully so, from those who flew/tested them at first.  Yet - standing orders are needed to not slag the F35 in public.

War is Boring, FoxAlpha, Defense Weekly - all of them covered the 8 page internal memo sent to all pilots/operators/techs of the F35, instructing them NOT to say anything negative, and also providing very lame canned responses to any criticism.  Why was this not done with the F22, F15E, etc etc when those new fighters came out?  Or the Super Hornet for something recent - even with its range and other areas which could be criticized when has ANY pilot of the thing need to be ORDERED not to slag it?

Bingo. 

[Vraciu]

It's a fantastic machine...

It's a joke.

This airplane will be Sukhoi fodder.

[Vraciu]

Fine.

Is this relevant enough for you? The Pentagon and the USMC obviously do not agree over that report. Who do you believe, and why?

The Marines are trying to preserve their flying club.  Nothing more.

[Vraciu]

The F-35B is currently operational with a USMC squadron and it cannot perform any of those missions in its current operational state.  The F-35A, currently, can't even use the AIM-120 without a 3rd party providing the target info.  The F-35 has to slow down from max speed if it wants to fire any missile or counter measure.

Bingo. 

[Vraciu]

Lol, it IS their definition. Just read it.

You will never convince a true believer. 

[GScholz]

Wow! Six posts in a row! That has to be some kind of record. 

[Vraciu]

Wow! Six posts in a row! That has to be some kind of record. 

As opposed to your six pages?

Not hardly.

[GScholz]

Touché!