Author Topic: Dogfight : F35 vs F16  (Read 92675 times)

Offline shift8

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #165 on: April 13, 2016, 05:47:51 PM »
History has time and time again shown what you are saying to be erroneous.  There will always be within-visual-range dogfights as long as humans have eyes.

Actually, what history has shown time and time again is that weapons systems that are ineffective in their infancy are much more effective when they come into their own. It has been 40 years since Vietnam etc. The first IR missiles were garbage. Nobody thinks the current IR missiles are garbage. Tanks in WW1 were not that Amazing. In WW2 they were far more decisive. Modern Armies are EVEN MORE mechanized.

You cannot just rest your laurels on "well it didnt work as intended in vietnam" and take it for granted everything that has changed. Missiles and Radar have advanced many many fold since then. The end of the dogfight has been a long time coming. We have only been fighting in the air for about 100 years. Every other form of combat has changed dramatically over its history. So too will be the air.

What is more, we KNOW that the missiles are to the task this time around. Were not simply trusting a DLZ. We now test missiles against F-4 and F-16 target drones that can attempt to evade in a realistic fashion. Every single air force in the world in focused on BVR (yes even the Russians)


And while were at it, little known fact: The Vietnam missiles are quite a bit more effective than they are known for. 2/3rds of all the kills were with missiles EVEN after they got the guns on the F-4s. A considerable portion of the missile failures were due to poor maintenance and poor usage, not bad design. Standards on weapons maintenance were not the same then as they are now. The Jets then had very crude systems for telling the pilot when the missile was in parameters, leading to many out of parameters shots. Units were ordered to fire several shots without waiting to see the effect of the first, leading to statistical errors in pK calculation etc. There were few BVR shots, but this had more to do with Sensor limitations and IFF.

Offline shift8

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #166 on: April 13, 2016, 06:00:40 PM »
AND if you ever managed to get to a merge, this is was your facing. Impossible to decoy with flares. Neigh-on impossible to dodge once inside DLZ. When I can shoot a missile straight back wards or off my 3-9 line, it isnt a dogfight. Doesnt matter if I can see you. IF you come to the merge somehow, you will most likely be either still defensive or only just out of defensive from a BVR shot. Once again, agility doesnt matter if I enter the fight from a position of great advantage because my AMRAAM forced you to squirm all over the sky to defeat it. Not to mention that it is nearly impossible to defeat most BVR missiles if you get that close. Once you get to RTR, the only good option is to turn away from the missile and run. Thanks for lending me your six o'clock. If you get to RTR and dont run, you die. Unless you think your 9G aircraft is going to defeat a 30-40 G missile coming at your at Mach 3-5.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMSfg26YSQ

Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #167 on: April 13, 2016, 06:15:21 PM »
We, and a good portion of Europe are using the AIM-2000 IRIS-T dogfight missile. With HMS, lock-on after launch and extreme 60g maneuverability it has "over the shoulder" capability (360° defense capability) and can attack aircraft behind the launching aircraft.



http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/iris-t-air-air-guided-missile-germany/
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #168 on: April 13, 2016, 06:19:13 PM »
Here's our friend "Dolby" again. This time in his F-16 firing an IRIS-T at a drone.

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Offline nrshida

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #169 on: April 14, 2016, 12:19:52 AM »
The end of the dogfight has been a long time coming.

You seem remarkably well-informed Shift8. May I ask you then, if all you say is true, I'm curious why the YF-22 design was selected over the YF-23, an apparently faster and more stealthy proposition with considerably longer range (by almost a third again) - but less manoeuvrable. The answer could of course be political / economic, a pre-disposition to Lockheed Martin, perceived versus known technical doubt etc.

Especially the 2D thrust vectoring on the YF/F-22 is a rather odd design feature is it not? Heavy, complex, expensive and in the light of what you're saying, redundant?

« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 12:22:35 AM by nrshida »
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Offline Squire

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #170 on: April 14, 2016, 01:24:14 AM »
It's all good until the air combat happens in a way that the computer models, think tank gurus, and slide rule "experts" didn't consider. Then it goes to s***. Every time.

You think WVR is going to be all super rare in the next big shooting war? I very much doubt that. If we know anything from history, war is not predictable or orderly which is why many peacetime defense ideas go right into the crapper the first time a round comes past your head.

The F-35 is a great warbird.

On paper.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #171 on: April 14, 2016, 09:24:35 AM »
How many fighters have been shot down by gunfire in a dogfight since the Vietnam War? Modern missiles have revolutionized air combat, in much the same way as gunpowder revolutionized ground battles. That most armies back then still thought it was a good idea to stand in open terrain in tight formations, and and wear brightly colored uniforms shows just how hard it is for military organizations to change with the advance of technology. Hopefully we've become a little better at it.
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Offline Gman

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #172 on: April 14, 2016, 01:24:15 PM »
It's an interesting subject, one I've read a lot about recently, a lot of USAF and DOD reports, Rand war games results and analysis, and other stuff.  I read about 20 defense sites daily, and a couple focus mostly on air combat, and are really giving this topic a lot of airplay right now.  I can see both sides of it - I too have long said that the AA11 Archer/R73 would have been a rude surprise had we gone to war in the 80s against anyone equipped with it, as it had AIm9x like performance LONG before the USA had that missile, and it really surprised the US intel services when they finally got a hold of one from the East German AF after the wall fell.  I agree that HOBS shots with modern IR missiles like the 9x, R73, IrisT, Asraam, Israeli missiles, and others, are very lethal now, and don't require the target to be in that front cone of vulnerability/attack.  Still, anything can be decoyed eventually - when the Aim9 M model came out, it was supposed to be uber resistant to flares and deceptive defenses, and in the 1st GW an F15 after salvoing most of its Aim7s at a Mig25, all missing, had fired THREE Aim9m missiles at this single fighter, which neat as you please decoyed and evaded 2 of the first Aim9 shots, then finally took a hit from the third.

This is the issue IMO - while missile lethality HAS evolved to the point where in recent years BVR missiles have become the most effective killers stats wise, the tide can turn and the advantage swing back to ECM/defenses just as fast.  According to many defense reports and articles from pilots/thinktanks/etc, it already has with the Aim120 somewhat. Digital radio frequency memory jamming is employed by many of the Russian and CHinese fighters now, and it's had a pretty drastic effect in simulations regarding the Aim120 pK.   

This report has a great bunch of charts, and makes a good case for what Shift8 has said.  https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwjX5pr-2Y7MAhVB6x4KHf6bDJkQFgg3MAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcsbaonline.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F04%2FAir-to-Air-Report-.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGuPkE3Fnei78vEdeXIqm-RbU3r4w&cad=rja

This article seems to agree with GScholz and Shift8 -

Quote
With an increasing number of modern combat aircraft equipped
with missile-approach warning systems, it is likely that a pilot under attack will have sufficient
time to target an attacker and launch a missile in return. Once both aircraft have “launch and
leave” missiles in the air, prospects are good that the short-range engagement will result in
“mutual kills,” with short-range combat kill ratios near 1:1. This suggests we may have reached
a point in the development of short-range air combat technologies where serious, capable
adversaries will attempt to avoid it and instead seek advantage in superior BVR capabilities.

That said, recent RAND war games have incorporated new Russian and Chinese ECM capabilities vs the Aim120 and Meteor, which have been proven already to show a massive reduction in pK of these weapons.  The RAND report (I`ll link it later, as the link is on another PC) has stated that BVR MRM are losing a lot of their effectiveness, so the aforementioned chart in the previous link, showing how BVR stats from the Vietnam era basically flip flopped with guns/IR missiles, will possibly do so again now.  It's like the arms vs armor contest, ECM/defenses and MRM radar guided effectiveness constantly changing the landscape of how effective each are.

I do mostly agree though with what Shift8 and others have said, however ignoring the importance of being able to a: run, fast, and b: maneuver if required, not just for offense/guns but mostly for defensive reasons, is a foolish mistake to make.  There are already towed decoy systems and new laser/IR jamming/spoofing systems, both passive and active, coming online all the time, along with the radar guided ECM stuff.  Just assuming that stealth will be enough to break the kill chain every time, and that being able to get fast and get away OR turn and fight WVR is no big deal anymore would be a huge mistake IMO. 

Interesting article here -  https://hushkit.net/2016/03/17/su-35-versus-typhoon-analysis-from-rusis-justin-bronk/
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 01:36:43 PM by Gman »

Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #173 on: April 14, 2016, 01:55:31 PM »
There has been a quantum leap in IR missile technology with the advent of IR imaging seekers, a decade ago or so. Flares are totally ineffective against a seeker that doesn't just follow an IR hotspot, but actually is a high definition IR camera, with intelligent image processing capabilities that track the whole aircraft shape. As computer intelligence become smarter and smarter it will soon (if not already) be as hard to fool a missile as it would be to fool a human.

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Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #174 on: April 14, 2016, 02:22:03 PM »
Just assuming that stealth will be enough to break the kill chain every time, and that being able to get fast and get away OR turn and fight WVR is no big deal anymore would be a huge mistake IMO.

I very much agree, but as "Dolby" told us in his article underestimating the F-35's capabilities (based on media reputation) would also be a mistake. And there aren't many fighters that are able to keep up with a Mach 1.6 F-35 while also carrying a war load to shoot it down with.
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Offline Gman

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #175 on: April 14, 2016, 02:43:35 PM »
One thing regarding the whole Mach 1.6 thing, I have 3 articles bookmarked from 3 different sources saying that to reach Mach 1.6 the F35 can only do so while draining all of its fuel at max thrust/AB, and it takes a very, very long time.  Bill Flynn, a chief test pilot on early F35s said the following when comparing the F35 to the Typhoon in acceleration.

Quote
Transonic acceleration is excellent in the F-35, as it is for the Typhoon and better than in an F/A-18 or F-16, but mainly due to its low drag characteristics than to its powerplant. That means that immediately after the transonic regime, the F-35 would stop accelerating and struggle forever to reach a non operationally suitable Mach 1.6.

Like I said, I've read the same thing 3 other places recently, that once supersonic the F35 really, REALLY struggles to accelerate, and by the time that 1.6 figure is reached, it's beyond bingo fuel time. 

It's all speculation at this point, still, with the F35, but IF that turns out to be the case...well, the whole sensor/stealth advantage BETTER work out, or the F35 pilots will be in deep, deep crap if ever tasked for air superiority missions without support of the F22 or other fighters designed to fight other fighters specifically. 

IMO in the next couple of years we'll know, one way or the other.  Once more mature software and such make the F35 reach the vaunted 3F coded variant, full warfighting capability, there will be a ton of exercises with it, and if it sucks, that'll get out to the media in pretty short order.  Until then, again, it's all speculation.  I sure hope it works, and works well, the last thing we need in these days of tight budgets and incredibly dangerous times with increasing threats and tensions in every corner of the planet, is a primary weapon, the most expensive in history, NOT to work. 

Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #176 on: April 14, 2016, 03:12:07 PM »
Still, an F-18C (like the ones you guys fly now) or even the F-18E can't reach Mach 1.6 with any stores on. Not even empty pylons. They would have to be completely clean. And The Hornet would also have to use reheat but with a much smaller internal fuel load to feed it. So in a realistic confrontation the F-18C/E and the F-35 are very similar in performance, but with one significant difference. The F-35 is able to achieve Mach 1.2 without reheat, while carrying a usable war load. Only one other aircraft in the world can do that.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #177 on: April 14, 2016, 03:15:34 PM »
Still, an F-18C (like the ones you guys fly now) or even the F-18E can't reach Mach 1.6 with any stores on. Not even empty pylons.

Would be interested in seeing your source for Hornet's speed data.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #178 on: April 14, 2016, 03:30:55 PM »
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #179 on: April 14, 2016, 04:03:19 PM »
Ahh, meant the F-18C, sorry...should have specified.

Those don't have data just with the hard points for F-18E. They are just so integral part of the plane you rarely see them off and the "generic" speed that is given the most for F-18c is mach 1.8.
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